[barnetmill]

308 is best for me since I have more than one rifle in that caliber. Sniping is a very general term covering many different scenarios. I would only be doing something like in a world without rule of law. Under such conditions ammunition supply is important and 308 is a quite generic round and with a run of the mill rifle in 308 in the hands of run of the mill shooter like myself I am good maybe to 500 yards. In my terrain only by climbing a tree or on a roof top can one see really long distances.
None of the mentioned calibers is ideal for extreme long range sniping.

 

[barnetmill]

I’m not sure I’ve seen terminal ballistic data from 6.5 bullets on gelatin, or real game, at 1000 yards or so. I don’t believe ballistic tip bullets would expand much at that distance…. Maybe I am wrong.

But one key advantage of 6.5 mm bullets is the sectional density, which can mitigate reduced velocity/energy considerations at distance when penetration matters most. Most bullets aren’t going to expand much at 1000+ yards anyway.

But I hear you. I’m not a .30 cal hater. 😂

At 1000 yards ranges, long bullets would expected be to key hole and bullets doing that can do a lot of tissue damage.

 

[Shortbox4x4]

The 308win / 7.62 Nato has to be one of the barrels in a snipers kit. Why? You will always find ammo for it even if it means delinking belt gun ammo. Also it's virtually the perfect case capacity for bore size so it's easy on barrels and accuracy is also very good. We always say if you cannot get a 308w to shoot..... something is really wrong.

No vote for any 6mm as a sniper round. Just not heavy enough bullets in my opinion for the job. So, lack of down range stopping power. I would consider the 6ARC on a AR platform for a short range to med. range caliber for the work but that would be about it.

I don't like 25cal. a 6mm or a 6.5mm bullets are way better bc wise typically for starters. If you talk 270cal bullets give me a 6.5mm or a 7mm any day over a 270cal bullet.

The 6.5CM or 260 are both being used by Socom and other special forces units. Take your pick… they are ballistic twins. I have both built on guns. 6.5 and bullet choices for me are the 135 and 153 Atips, the 150SMK and the 140 and 147 Hornady Eldm bullets. I wouldn't run a barrel length shorter than 23" with these rounds. Maybe 22". At 23" you can push the 150gr class bullets to 2700fps. Keep cutting it shorter and your coughing up velocity in terms of loss and will defeat the purpose of it as a medium to long range round for sniping.

Sorry but no vote for 6.5x284. Why? You could have feeding/mag fitting issues with it because of the rebated rim but the biggest factor is barrel life. As a F class gun round your looking at about 600-800 rounds of barrel life. If you can get it a 1k or so consider yourself lucky. Barrel life with a 6.5cm or the 260 will be about 3k rounds tops depending on your accuracy requirement. Pressure test barrels they only get about 1700-1900 out of them tops and they are pulling them in 6.5CM.

The 277SF round I don't see becoming mainstream as a sniper round in my opinion at this time. I asked the Marines last month directly to they're face if they were getting guns in 277SF and they said no. Not getting on the bandwagon. It's strictly an Army gun thing for now. For a sniping platform caliber, the barrel life is not good. Dismal at best is what I will say. To keep it holding accuracy and lucky to keep it at 1moa you have to clean it every 30-40 rounds. Fouling due the 80k psi loads is not good. Also, like the 338 Lapua the shorter you make the barrel length the worse the accuracy gets due to the pressure behind the bullet when it leaves the muzzle. I'd like to meet the General guy who's dream this was to write a spec of 140+gr bullet at 3000+fps and ask him what the hell he was thinking. The rest was left up to the industry to figure out. There are other issues as well with the hybrid case head and chamber wear and extraction issues that I'll again say no to it being a sniper round. A general machinegun round? I'll say o.k./maybe at this time.

284win… had it on a f open class gun. Awesome round but again not a short action round using it that way. Your way pass the 2.800” o.a.l. My powder choice is H4831sc. My load typically was 55 to 56gr of powder and in a 32” barrel I could knock on 2900fps. Shorter barrel length is going to make you cough up velocity. Next powder choice is H4350. 183SMK was my favorite pill. Barrel life could go to 2k rounds.

Next in line is the new 7/6.5PRC case. It is taking over F Open and to me is a better option than 284win because the hot loads on the 284win is hard on the brass/primer pockets. The 7/6.5PRC case can do it easier. I’m getting ready to put a new barrel on my F open gun and this is the caliber it will be. We are making a 32” P&V barrel. Hornady is supplying the brass (due to calibration reasons for pressure testing) and also supplied 166 and 190gr Atips for me to load. Sierra supplied some of the 197SMK and I already have 183SMK. Hornady will be doing all the pressure testing at n/c so we get real world pressure data. We are making the barrel at n/c and I’ll be loading all the ammo with lot numbers of the bullets, cases, powder and primer.

I don’t see in the real world though the 6.5x284 or the 284win or the 7/6.5PRC becoming standard sniper type rounds. Also, with long match bullets they don't fall into a short action round anymore.

I’ve omitted the 6.5PRC. Sorry but it can toast barrels in as little as 400ish rounds. About the longest they can get on a pressure barrel life was is about 900. Average barrel life is about 650 or so. I’ve tried the 6.5PRC myself and I’m not a fan. Hunting round o.k. but not a sniper round. Plus, I’ve had too many customers with issues with it as well. Mostly lack of maintenance causing issues. The 26 Nosler is even worse!

I would exclude a 7mm-08 and a 280 Rem type round. The 7-08 is going to give up to much in my opinion with a long heavy bullet vs a 308w. So, you're not really gaining anything. The 280 Rem.? Now your back to it not being a short action round. Love the 280AI and the 7x57AI rounds myself but not my choice for a sniper gun.

300win mag with the Mk248 Mod 1 ammo with the 220smk is loaded beyond normal working pressures. If you gave me the ammo, I wouldn’t run it in my gun. Last I heard there was 3m rounds in inventory somewhere and no one knows what to do with them and a lot of finger pointing was going on. Special forces won't use it. They were using 190smk loaded by Blackhills. I quote the former guy that ran the unit out of Ft. Bragg as I asked him what ammo they were using and if it was the Mod 1 ammo. He said he will not send his guys into combat with that ammo. My pick for a 30cal magnum round would be the 300PRC. It does whatever the 300wm can do and without any issues and is equal to the 300 Norma. I wouldn't use the 300 Norma myself.

338 cal... I would use the 338 Norma over the 338 Lapua. The 338 Lapua is a violent round is the only way I can say it. You cut the barrel shorter and shorter there is so much pressure behind the bullet when it leaves the muzzle that they can be hard to get to shoot accuracy wise. Either one of these rounds is best in a longer length barrel. I'd say 26" to 27". The 338 Norma round in the ASR rifles is not designated as a anti personal round. It's strictly a payload round and the accuracy requirement is 1.5moa. The 308w and 300 Norma are the anti-personal rounds.

My thoughts on this for now.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Random Guy]

My thoughts on this for now.

Wow! Thanks for that awesome knowledge dump! Anytime you want to share your first person expertise and empirical data with us - please do so(!).

Also, what load do you like with the 6.5mm Horn 135 ATIPs? I have a box of those bullets but have not yet experimented with them in 6.5CM.

 

[Shortbox4x4]

Wow! Thanks for that awesome knowledge dump! Anytime you want to share your first person expertise and empirical data with us - please do so(!).

Also, what load do you like with the 6.5mm Horn 135 ATIPs? I have a box of those bullets but have not yet experimented with them in 6.5CM.

The 147/150/153gr bullets give or take a .1 of a grain of powder pretty much 41.4/41.5gr of H4350 powder and like I said it gives me 2700fps and that's out of 3 different rifles.

With the 135ATips I think I'm at 42.5 or 42.8gr of H4350. I don't have the load data in front of me. It's at home and haven't shot a lot of it as I focus mostly on the heavy bullets but I know the load I'm running is giving me 2800fps.

I've also loaded some just for testing Shooters World Powder Long Rifle. Suppose to be the H4350 equivalent and has worked pretty good so far but only small lot testing here and there. I can still lay my hands on H4350 when I need it so the SWP is back up powder for now if H4350 becomes unobtanium.

I'm excited for the 7/6.5PRC load/testing when the barrel gets done (not scheduled till Feb for the barrel itself) and then it goes down to Hornady. In the mean time I have to get loading done as well but waiting for my dies to get here but I can squeak buy with necking up brass and loading that first. Just won't be able to resize the fired cases till my dies get here. I'll shoot some of the loads thru my gun as well before Hornady gets the test barrel into the ballistic lab. My barrel will be on my rifle sometime in the next couple of weeks. Just have to block out time to do the install work.

Your welcome on the info dump!

 

[tank1949]

Gents,

For those of us shooting "service rifle" the answer is, of course, the .308. More out of necessity than anything else, methinks. I firmly believe that the .308 is superior to most other cartridges. Where it falls a bit short it is not due to the cartridge, but rather the caliber. Frankly, the BC's of the .30's suck unless you go heavy weight 190's and up. I should note that .30 cal. bullet weights have climbed to almost 145 gr. (SMK), but the .308 does not have the capacity to push the heavies. The best option for the .308 is probably the newish 169 gr. SMK. IT CAN be pushed fast enough to be viable in the .308 AND have a competitive trajectory. Those shooting it should chime in and add your experiences.
I've found that it gives 3-4 MOA less drop at 600 yds than the 168 or 175 gr. in the .308. That IS significant.
Of course, it has the added advantage of availability, both of bullets and brass. In short, the .308 is the cartridge the others must beat.

Those stumping for the 7mm/08 are going to have trouble finding bullets and brass in today's market. It's a wonderful cartridge, but is not legal for service rifle and your stuck shooting high power bolt guns for match purposes. If you shoot "F" class there are better cartridges out there. It just doesn't have the legs to make the journey, IMHO. (Phil is throwing up right now).

The newer "darling" of the "F" class shooters is the .284 Winchester. Not only does it have the capacity to shoot the 175 to 183 gr. and higher weight SMK's well, but it is an EXTREMELY accurate cartridge. It also bucks the wind wonderfully.
If it weren't for current shortages of reloading components it is my pick of the litter.

In closing I think that the .284 is the best cartridge for tactical/match shooting, but feel that most of us are well served with the .308 Winchester provided the 169 Gr. SMK is used. Other than that I'll go with the .284 Winchester as the real winner here.

Here's my GA Precision M40A1 series rifle in .284 Winchester:

View attachment 533426

I'll be working with the .284 this winter and will report my results back. Load will be:
183 gr SMK, Hogdon H4831SC, Lapua brass, and a Federal 210M primer.

Your thoughts and experiences are solicited...

Wes

UR correct about locating components. I have been searching online for H4895 for 3 years.

 

[M11293]

Wow! Thanks for that awesome knowledge dump! Anytime you want to share your first person expertise and empirical data with us - please do so(!).

Also, what load do you like with the 6.5mm Horn 135 ATIPs? I have a box of those bullets but have not yet experimented with them in 6.5CM.

I’m going to have to go with Frank at Bartlein on this one. Lots to unpack there!

 

[Shortbox4x4]

UR correct about locating components. I have been searching online for H4895 for 3 years.

H4895 is like H4198. Pretty much unobtanium for now. 4198 is worse. I haven't even seen any for sale even on gunbroker for like 2 years now. Last time we bought any 4198 for the shop we paid $120 a pound.

There are like 4 or 5 auctions on GB right now for H4895. Pretty much $100 per pound. There is one auction for 2# and it's a $160 buy it now.

 

[03MC11]

I'm on my second barrel and like the 6MM CM over the 6.5.

 

[Kopper]

View attachment 533602



I'm on my second barrel and like the 6MM CM over the 6.5.

That looks fantastic 🤠

 

[Birchtree77]

Gents,

For those of us shooting "service rifle" the answer is, of course, the .308. More out of necessity than anything else, methinks. I firmly believe that the .308 is superior to most other cartridges. Where it falls a bit short it is not due to the cartridge, but rather the caliber. Frankly, the BC's of the .30's suck unless you go heavy weight 190's and up. I should note that .30 cal. bullet weights have climbed to almost 145 gr. (SMK), but the .308 does not have the capacity to push the heavies. The best option for the .308 is probably the newish 169 gr. SMK. IT CAN be pushed fast enough to be viable in the .308 AND have a competitive trajectory. Those shooting it should chime in and add your experiences.
I've found that it gives 3-4 MOA less drop at 600 yds than the 168 or 175 gr. in the .308. That IS significant.
Of course, it has the added advantage of availability, both of bullets and brass. In short, the .308 is the cartridge the others must beat.

Those stumping for the 7mm/08 are going to have trouble finding bullets and brass in today's market. It's a wonderful cartridge, but is not legal for service rifle and your stuck shooting high power bolt guns for match purposes. If you shoot "F" class there are better cartridges out there. It just doesn't have the legs to make the journey, IMHO. (Phil is throwing up right now).

The newer "darling" of the "F" class shooters is the .284 Winchester. Not only does it have the capacity to shoot the 175 to 183 gr. and higher weight SMK's well, but it is an EXTREMELY accurate cartridge. It also bucks the wind wonderfully.
If it weren't for current shortages of reloading components it is my pick of the litter.

In closing I think that the .284 is the best cartridge for tactical/match shooting, but feel that most of us are well served with the .308 Winchester provided the 169 Gr. SMK is used. Other than that I'll go with the .284 Winchester as the real winner here.

Here's my GA Precision M40A1 series rifle in .284 Winchester:

View attachment 533426

I'll be working with the .284 this winter and will report my results back. Load will be:
183 gr SMK, Hogdon H4831SC, Lapua brass, and a Federal 210M primer.

Your thoughts and experiences are solicited...

Wes

What make model is than with a metal detach mag?

 

[jkv45]

An interesting older video showing a 1250 meter 7.62x51 shot in Ramadi by former Army Ranger James Gilliland (5:30) -

Obviously not optimum - but gettin' the job done with the tools you have available.

 

[Cjgregory]

In my opinion. The future is bullet design and not caliber. A 30 caliber is more versatile and allows more design potentials due to more mass to work with.
Too many people have been programmed thinking velocity is key. This is false data. Extremely false. The problem is diminishing returns. You can push a varmint round to almost 4,000 FPS. But it’s useless at extended ranges as it won’t kill a whole lot.

Now to answer the question more definitively. The 7.62 NATO is plenty. As a grunt I don’t care about how far you can shoot. It doesn’t mean squat. That doesn’t help me, nor does have much to do with overwatch. A military question was asked. A military/tactical answer has been supplied. This is why a Marine STA platoon mostly shoots 7.62. Their job is to cover me and my squad. That means most shots will be less than 500 meters. Well less at times. 200 or less. He needs to score an “X” every single time while covering us. No exceptions.

It you can’t score 25 “X” ring kills in a row at 300- 500 meters, I don’t need you. This would include all conditions.
A battlefield sniper is there to serve and protect the men in the primary mission. No exceptions. All assets serve the grunts/operators. No exceptions. We don’t need you if you are acting out some other type of mission in your head. Stuff Hollywood. They are entertainment and nothing more.

You serve me and my men. End of story. This is why a sniper is called an attachment to the mission unit. Until you are a world class shooter at 500 meters or less…you are not ready. Don’t pretend you are.

 

[RollingT]

Discussion can turn 180 degrees simply by bolt or M1A firing these calibers. We building or owning ?
This a 600 yd shooting discussion or 100 to 1000 yds. Framing the discussion helps or in better terms what is the mission / shooters requirement. I got nothing to argue with the facts Weshow states nor that of others. What is said is more valid than questionable.

I've been into this caliber thing for the last 15 years , initially 100 to 600 and then moving to 1000 yds and seen a lot of serious shooters here at Quantico try different solutions. Here is my take and thoughts.

a. 7mm calibers dead , components sparse and for some obtuse reason the superb 7mm/08 didn't change the American indifference to 7mm calibers. Lost opportunity as 7mm has great potential.

b. 30 caliber got neutered as soon as 308 became the sex kitten that "did everything a 3006 can do". Well it can't if you move off 600 yd line and gain more distance. A lot of the decision to go with 762 was weight of ammo and battle field needs for battle rifles more than met with 762 Nato. Oh you say M700 sniper rifle systems shoot 762 out to 1000 yds and yes they do but...and here is where the inconvenient truth is ....out of a bolt M700, the 3006 outshoots the 308 Win for accuracy. Yes it does, I've moved to 3006 for 1000 yds because 308 is on life support at this distance from a M700. 3006 beats it at 1000 yd for accuracy but 308 is combat effective at 1000 yds...just not as consistent for precision shooting which of course defines sniper rifles . I own the 308 and 3006 M700's, I bought the T shirt and 3006 is more accurate at 1000 yds: both are just Peachy at a mere 600 yds.

c. Long vs short action bolt rifles. The craze for short action is smoke. It takes me no more to run that long bolt Model 700 in 3006 than same rifle in 308. The difference in action "desirability" really is not speed, its the dementia of 3 ounces of weight saved by using a short action bolt rifle which does open up a huge menu of chassis selections for you but LIMITS you on calibers. Semi auto rifles ...we were shooting M1's in 3006 for a long time at 1000 yds till the notion 308 does everything and the M1 vanished from competition and M14 took its place. Yes I shoot M1A at 1000 yds and can do 15 to 18" groups which will print not too shabby scores on big NRA/CMP bullseyes for that distance. In fact, my M1A scoped will hold all rounds in a man size chest at 1000yds..if the standard of accuracy is dropping men flat on the deck, its more than adequate for sniper use at 1000 yds.

d. 6.5 is indeed a wonderful long range bullet and if Hornady had flogged it as 6.5/308 the caliber would have flopped but BS sells ...they called it 6.5 Creedmoor and rest is history. Is it better than 308 Win for 1000 yds...Hell yes it is and out of my Accuracy International rifle with Bartlein barrels in 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 Win.....6.5 Creedmoor is more accurate. The AI is a sniper rifle so for purposes of best caliber, its the best sniper caliber in 6.5 Creed vs 308 Win. Now if that rifle were made in 6.5x55 Swede, the 6.5 Creedmoor would suck swamp water but they only make short action so the driver is action length not best caliber for a sniper rifle. Hey ...338 Lapua is bloody amazing sniper platform and no one snivels about its long action nor bolt throw or weight !

e. 308 Win is good Enuff for sniper use out of a bolt or semi auto rifle to 600 yds and 6.5 Creedmoor is better . At 1000 yds, the 6.5 Creedmoor is hands down far better. If I rebarreled my M1A to 6.5 Creedmoor, case of beer its 15 to 18" groups at 1000 yds would shrink. As said out of my AI sniper platform 6.5 Creedmoor is more accurate than 308 Win. Just is. And out of my other long range precision rifles in 308 Win and 3006, the 3006 beats 308 at 1000 yds hands down on better accuracy. Yes, if AI had offered a long action, I'd be shooting 3006 and 6.5 caliber Bartlein barrels but AI doesn't do long actions...if that changed DO NOT TELL ME. I'm not over the PTSD price I paid for my AI short action !! LOL

Where are we then. well, I've run this rabbit down the hole at 100 to 1000 yds and my conclusions above are of 15 yrs shooting about every weekend Rg 4 Quantico . 6.5 is more accurate bullet than 308 due to BC, both calibers driven on the market by short actions while long action calibers using same bullets will do better ..but those are not sold , the Kool Factor BS is you got to have a short action. That sells...BS sells , new sells ...6.5/08 won't but 6.5 Creedmoor does.

The reason 6.5 is better is really because it is BUT its been overlooked and been unsuccessful at times some rifle maker tried to flag it. My 264 Win Mag an example of failure. The ignorance of our shooters on 6.5 is legendary but all it took was relabel it with an American logo like Creedmoor and all of a sudden the lights go on in the American attics and its now the hottest chick to chase. Its not new , we had 6.5/08 long ago but we drank the 308 does everything Kool Aid and rest is history.

6.5/3006 Ackley Improved : I'd do it but chasing rainbows no longer on my radar. Best sniper caliber...308 Win adequate but not "best" for all missions.

I was smarter in 2008 than today, I knew then that 3006 or a 6.5/06 or 6.5 Swede would really be the ticket for 100 to 1000 yd accuracy but the Short Action and 308 Win Kool Aid deflected me , wasted my time and money and in 2023, I know 3006 and 6.5 caliber is the ticket for long range precision shooting. I own a 6.5 Creedmoor short action only because AI doesn't sell a long action 6.5 Swede caliber rifle or a 3006 caliber rifle.

But 308 / 762 ain't Best. Recommend not drinking that Kool Aid. I'll be home all day so you 308 Win villagers get your torches & pitch forks and come get me. Don't forget the rope and yes there is a tree in front yard still.

My grammar and spelling errors are patented. Don't plagiarize my success with English.

How about .30-06 AI? You can still do that for pennies. It might be worth a try for an even better 1,000. Stay safe. j

 

[weshowe]

Gents,

I really appreciate the thoughtful input and information you have provided. The bottom line is well dance with what we brought to the party...for most of that (currently) it will be the .308.

Wes

 

[edgartwib]

I've got custom 7mm-08 m14 barrel i believe it an Olympic or Hart barrel. It will get built eventually.

 

[Duce]

I've got custom 7mm-08 m14 barrel i believe it an Olympic or Hart barrel. It will get built eventually.

Me want.

 

[Shortbox4x4]

I've got custom 7mm-08 m14 barrel i believe it an Olympic or Hart barrel. It will get built eventually.

Back in the late 90s when I was at Krieger we did make a handful of 7-08 barrels and 243w barrels.

John also did before my time make some 8mm M1G barrels. How many I don’t know but very very few.

 

[Phil “Murphy” McGrath]

I've got custom 7mm-08 m14 barrel i believe it an Olympic or Hart barrel. It will get built eventually.

Me want.

Ive got two both are Obermeyer’s 5R tubes one is a 9 twist the other is a 8, they just need finished machine work. I have the perfect donor rifle.

FYI factory SAI barrels were rifled 1/10 for 7-08.

 

[noob14s]

I shoot to 1000 about once a week and it's hard to argue against 6.5 creedmoor. When the wind kicks up the difference between it and 308 are much more apparent. Also the recoil is far less than a magnum. My particular 308 bolt gun is very very accurate but wind plays hell on those bullets. The 6.5 creedmoor drops about a full mil less and the wind is half as much, sometimes not even a factor. Finally you're not hunting for brass/bullets all the time since 264 has always been a popular bullet size and lots of powders will work (6.5 staball is very common and shoots great).

Magnums are more for hunting large game and target shooting well beyond 1000 which are both pretty rare. In my 300 win mag I'm using 64gr of powder to send a 190 at 2750fps which isn't much different than my 6.5 creedmoor using 43 grains of powder and a 140. My 300 PRC is a 212 at about 2850 and it definitely flies flatter but good luck getting more than 3-4 shots out of it.