It's from being stored in comoline. I've read that soaking the firearm in valveoline engine oil will speed up the process.

 

The black or charcoal colour is manganese phosphate.

The green is zinc phosphate, if I'm not mistaken.

Just have to ask if places do zinc or manganese, or both.

 

It's zinc phosphate. There are a few places out there that do it. Most places seem to use manganese phosphate. I'm not sure why it's more prevalent than the other or why or when the military made the switch.

 

it's zinc phosphate. There are a few places out there that do it. Most places seem to use manganese phosphate. I'm not sure why it's more prevalent than the other or why or when the military made the switch.

The manganese phosphate today is the same as it was in ww2. The "green" color is from long term chem conversion with the nickel in suspension being the component that turns green. If you look into a drum of it it is bright green.

The zinc phosphate is a light gray and is not readily used on military firearms because of the rapid breakdown under high tempratures. There were a lot of post ww2 m1 and m2 carbines rebuilds done at springfield in the 50's, and put into long term storage drums that were issued to the usaf and they were done in zinc. The zinc has a better corrosion resistance than manganese. those carbines were the only mass production process done and was stopped after they found the high temp problem.

The colors of the manganese are directly influenced by the chemical composition of the steel that is being treated by it. A great example is the early two tone m1 receivers. Another is the contrast between the barrel and receiver both are done by the same process. Colors in newley processed pieces range from slate gray to black, again based on the steel composition.

I have m1's that i did 25-30 years ago that now have the ww2 "green" look to them.

Both of these processes were developed by bell labratories for pole hardware.

There is another, iron phosphate, that you can find on some post ww1 springfields that were done in the 20's with it. They are a brick red in color. very rare to find today since most were done over for ww2 in manganese. This was the original Parkerizing before it was bought out by Amchem.

 

SOCOM42 I appreciate the education.

 

Can a Poly receiver be parked in manganese phosphate?

Thanks,

Rchjr

 

can a poly receiver be parked in manganese phosphate?

Thanks,

rchjr

any ferrous material can be done. Copper based, aluminum, and stainless steels cannot.

 

I don't see why a Polytech receiver couldn't be parked in same way after all they are both forged steel receivers. I have a Colt 1911A-1, Lend Lease with Brit proofs, that we sent over to Great Britain during WW2 and it has the same green tint the OP was talking about.

I bought the old Colt from a secretary at a steel company that our trucking company hauled steel for. She said her uncle brought it home from the war and had slept with it under his pillow for the rest of his life.

She wanted to know if I'd give her $160.00 for it? I told her to bring it the next day and I'd have the money for her. This was back in the early 70s and that fine old Colt still looked brand new. Back then $160.00 was a pretty decent sum of money.

7th

 

Long term storage in cosmoline is the key. I did an experiment that ran 3 years whereby I packed my 03-A3 action in genuine WW2 era cosmiline, mummy wrapped and placed in attic. Nothing happened except I had to clean it off. My conclusion was it would take at least a decade to replicate this. Who has the time?

Perhaps those who like to make wine? Antiques were faked in China 500 years ago by burying ion the ground. Sure, it is an antique, maybe 500 years old, but not 2000 years old. Anyway, that is off track but where all this leads me thinking of perfecting the perfect finish. I also like the look of weapons as they were originally issued, and will be forever hard pressed to find a Garand as is issued from SA in 1942, as was photographed with My Uncle in the USMC. Now that was a crisp looking Garand in Zinc Park!

711

 

Thanks for the replies,

Someone told me that a poly receiver could not be parked in manganese phosphate. I know now that he did not know what he was talking about.

Thanks!

Rchjr

 

SOCOM42, thanks for that excellent reply. I had heard that it was due to overusing a batch of parkerizing mix and after it became somewhat contaminated with oils and grease, that the resultant finish would have a "Greenish" hue to it. Any veracity to this story??

The reason I ask is because I have a brand new LRB build with Krieger GI profile match barrel built with all HRA parts that I want to send out and have parked in the grey/green finish. Right now the barrel and receiver are new black park. The GI HRA parts all show some wear . . .

 

socom42, thanks for that excellent reply. I had heard that it was due to overusing a batch of parkerizing mix and after it became somewhat contaminated with oils and grease, that the resultant finish would have a "greenish" hue to it. Any veracity to this story??

completely false!!! Another person talking out of their a$$.

Mag phosphate is the fussiest process to do when it comes to being clean and uncontaminated.
If you even touch the metal with your finger it will ruin the finish. rubber gloves rule the day.
Petro based products are death to parkerizing.
Even waiting too long after sand blasting will also ruin it.
Everyone who ever worked here was under notice that if the blaster or the tank was contaminated with grease or oil from any part by them they would be fired.
Everything went through trichlorethylene dichloride before it gets near the processing equipment.
I threw my own brother out for throwing a greasy mod 37 ithaca rcvr in the blaster and never talked to him again(was not the first time he screwed up).
It could cost thousands in lost material and labor if there was oil contamination.
There is a titration test to keep the tank in chemical balance.

 

socom42

what is the OD green color i have seen on some Wilson Combat 1911's? Is this a green pigment added?

 

it might be one of the robar type finishes, only guessing. there is no pigmentation in parco.

 

My question still is:

If I want to get that greenish color, is there a process and someone who can do it??

SOCOM42; You never talked to your brother again over that??!! ~blink~blink~

 

my question still is:

If i want to get that greenish color, is there a process and someone who can do it??

Socom42; you never talked to your brother again over that??!! ~blink~blink~

cannot tell you who alters the finish to appear aged.

As far as the brother goes, no never again and never will, he is now dead.
First time he did it he caused a loss of around four thousand in lost time and material, 200 gallon tank had to be dumped and cleaned.
Last time only around 100 in abrasive material and the same in labor.

 

I hope that no one ever discovers a way to mimic the grayish green tint of some original parkerization. Many believe that the green color came about after being exposed to grease over time. Would explain some inconsistencies in the parkerization itself. Could also be oxidation of the park over time. No one knows exactly.

 

SOCOM42, Besides the thanks I sent you earlier I wanted to post here also. It's really nice to hear from the perspective of one who lives in the industry.
It's the best way to separate truth from legend.:ARM37:
Sorry about the family stuff. I got the tee-shirt too.
dance2

 

Thanks everyone for the great comments and info.

Guess I;ll just ask Who do you recommend to park the GI parts on my new LRB?

 

I heard somewhere that you can get parkerizing to turn green if you soak the gun for a while in used diesel oil.

I've never tried it, but I may just give it a try.

 

http://shuffsparkerizing.com/services/parkerizing/



Parkerizing is a chemical process using a low strength acid combined with either zinc (usually WWII) or Manganese (Some WWII but mostly post war). The metal is blasted with aluminum oxide and then submerged in the acid bath at about 180 degrees. This etches the metal from the acid bath into the work piece. A good park job is important because it provides a porous surface for the rifle to hold oil and prevent rust.

I parkerize every piece of the rifle except the pins, springs and the stainless (which I paint because stainless will not take parkerizing). The rifle is completely torn down during the process including the gas system, trigger system and all other components except the stock ferule (which is staked), and the butt plate. If you want the ferule or butt plate torn down before parking then please send them disassembled. The appearance will not differ whether these parts are torn down or not. All Garand and Carbine barrels are removed from the receiver for parkerizing. If rifles are sent with furniture, they are test fired for function. Parkerizing is available for the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, M1903, and M1917.

I offer both Zinc and Manganese parkerizing finish. A Zinc finish is a little lighter and has a gray/charcoal look. Mangangese is darker with a dark charcoal tint. The cost is the same for either finish, but add $35 if you want to use two different finishes. Be sure to specify on your order form which finish type you prefer.


Complete M1 Garand $125
Complete M1 Carbine $125
Complete M1917 $175
Complete M1903 $175
Barrel $45
Op Rod $45
Trigger Housing $10
Other Trigger Parts $5 each
Rear Sight Assembly $20
Front Sight $5
Receiver $50
Clip Latch $5
Bolt $7
Butt Plate $12
Other Stock Hardware $5 each

 

I can verify from personal experience that different ferrous metal compositions result in different colors of end products when using the manganese phosphate process. I've been doing home parkerizing for a few years and am presently completing the process on several M14 magazines. I've reparked several solid steel parts like triggers, hammers and sights but sheet metal magazines are a new experience for me.

I upgrades my tools, a real bead blast cabinet instead of a wood box, better filtration for oil and moisture and dedicated air supply. I had been using large Pyrex containers but just had one grenade on me and I lost all my solution and had to start all over. I'm using a large stainless steel pot for the parking and a large enamelled pot for preheat and rinsing. My heat source is a Coleman camp stove. I'm using odorless mineral spirits for degreasing. I use high risk rubber gloves for handling the items but still ended up with a few mags that had finger shaped outlines so those are getting redone. I picked up some stainless steel tongs and will be using those for handling the cleaned bare metal parts from now on.

After I got my new park solution aged with black iron I degreased, bead blasted, rinsed and parked some very badly rusted and pitted M1 carbine mags and they came out a grayish color. I then reparked several M14 mag floorplates and mag bodies and they came out a dark black. Both very different in colors from the solid steel parts that I'd done previously.

This has turned out to be a great learning experience for me!

 

I was discussing this thread over on the M14RA and Hawk brought this addition to the parking process up that should help 'green up' the final finish:

During the parkerizing process, before applying oil to the part, all one needs to do is brush on a mixture of acetone and cosmoline, let it dry and then apply the oil. This will age the parkerizing to that dark greenish that you find on old M1 and M14 parts.


I'll have to give this a try!

 

Thank you for that info. It's in line with what I had suspected - long-term effects of the old GI cleaning solvent, rifle grease, and storage cosmo. I have 1942 parts and 1945 parts that appear to be original park and have the greenish look, while others don't. I don't think much about the difference, but I guess it could stand out on a bolt or an op rod with a newly-parked receiver or a Greek black one.

 

It's not zinc phosphate alone. And cosmo or diesel will work if you have 20 years. Zinc is gray. Go search the CMP site. Someone did it. It involved pre treating the metal in phosphoric acid bath or something. Guy posted pics and did it.

 

The Story About Green Parkerizing
PARKERIZING COLORS

An Historical Perspective by Scott A. Duff

If you want to start an argument among collectors of U.S. Military Small Arms ask: "What color Parkerizing is original?" This seemingly simple question will provoke endless discussion, and provide a wider variety of answers than one could assume possible. Research conducted in the preparation of several Ml rifle related books has provided the opportunity to examine thousands of Garands, including hundreds of rifles in original configuration. Observations indicate the color of the Parkerized finish varied with the conditions under which the Parkerizing was applied, the era of the rifle's manufacture and the condition and length of time they were stored. Specific factors affecting the color resulting from the Parkerizing process include the type of phosphate used, the temperature and duration of the process, the saturating oil bath, and the preservative coating's reaction on the com-pounds contained in the Parkerizing. In addition, the method and chemicals used in heat treating and the specified hardness of the individual component also affected the finish color. For instance, a softer metal has a darker finish than a harder one.
Descriptions of variations in color and shade are subjective, and the same finish may be described differently by two different people. With that in mind, original finishes have been observed which are: charcoal black, gloss black, black with a noticeable green tint, dark olive green, a light, almost translucent gray, and translucent gray with a green cast. The earliest original rifles examined are in the collection at Springfield Armory National Historic Site. These rifles, serial numbers 81,87, 79115, 100,000, 1 million, 2 million and 3 million, are in "as-new" condition. They were deemed of historical significance, and generally transferred directly from the factory to the museum shortly after manufacture. They all are of charcoal black color. Early production Winchester Ml's are of the same color. None of these rifles have been coated with Cosmoline or saturated with oil. It is interesting to note that M14 rifles were not subject to Cosmoline coating and are the same color as these early Garands.
Other Ml rifles manufactured during this era which have seen service, have been observed to be of gloss black or dark green finish. It is believed that the gloss black is primarily a result of repeated cleaning with solvent and oil-soaked rags which gave an almost polished effect to the finish. The frequently encountered, dark green Parkerized finish is believed to be primarily a result of the compounds present in the Parkerized finish chemically reacting to the Cosmoline used for corrosion prevention during long term storage. Observations of original Garands manufactured by Springfield and Winchester indicate a change in the finish color from black to a translucent gray during the late summer of 1944. The Parkerizing process used to finish Ml's of post World War 11 manufacture appears to have returned to the charcoal black finish. If the rifle has been stored in Cosmoline, a green tint may be noted.
So, what color Parkerizing is original? Most "as new" Garands are charcoal black. Original finishes of gloss black, black with a noticeable green tint, dark olive green, a light, almost translucent gray, and translucent gray with a green cast have been observed. The variables mentioned above and more than fifty years of use and storage make it impossible to give a specific answer. However, one thing is certain; the argument among collectors and aficionados will continue.





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http://www.shootersolutions.com/green.html here's the green stuff

 

Holy smokes! What a planet.