Saaaaweeeeet!

 

Very Nice set up!..Just FYI I have a Troy SASS chassis to sell if anyone is looking to buy one, used but in good shape.

 

Thanks guys! Got out yesterday to sight in the BUIS at 50m and it was putting CBC and Winchester into 20 shot 1.5-2" groups at 50m firing at a rather quick pace. Iron sights held up for the 70 rounds I shot without changing zero or self destructing.

Still no scope though. DISHOUT

I do now have 2 Springfield Armory 20 rounders to add to the 3 Checkmate Industries 20 rounders and a Springfield Armory 10 rounder. Mag collection is off to a start!

Another thing off to a "good" start is my ammo collection. After reading the ZQI thread in the ammo section, I went to check out the local Walmart... found 20 boxes, bought 20 boxes. If it doesn't shoot worth a dang (which all accounts seem to say it's ok) I'll at least have a lot of good brass to reload!

I really want that scope to get here so I can eliminate any sight picture inconsistencies from the shooting equation and "complete" this rifle. I also don't want to waste my reloaded brass (all test loads) without the scope, hence the ZQI stuff. "Soon"

 

just so you know , 4 inch groups are not bad at all.

your stock wasnt bedded
proper draw pressure achieved
trigger guard lockup
screw n glue/ weld unitized gas system
shimmed gas system
ream fh to nm
relieve barrel band to nm
relieve stock around oprod guide
check for oprod binding
handgaurd not touching stock (confirm)



best of luck with that troy. if you have it all glued together tight with a nice one piece mount (dont get cantilevered) hope to see a range report.

cant say we see many troy mcs reports so thanks for posting.

you are smart to shoot it before trying the piston. its been proven that if you have several psitins to try you can find the "right one" for accuracy (credit to bamban and his thread on the subject)

dont forget to try different magazines as sometimes one mag is better than the other.


also you might look for an lr308 beavertail grip (or just dremel the one you have)

my favorite non beavertail is the BCM gunfighter.

 

While I'm not disagreeing with the idea that the 4" groups were not bad, they weren't great either. I expected more from an M1A Loaded given the supposed accuracy enhancements to the Loaded over a standard. As for that list, I'm making headway on it!

Stock is now an aluminum chassis, trigger guard lockup, gas system shimmed, the Loaded flash hider is already reamed, stock is relieved around barrel band and oprod guide. No oprod binding and no handgaurd touching.

Unitizing the gas system is difficult with the MCS setup, actually most likely impossible given how it works. Draw pressure is also a "concern" of me. The action does not currently "lock down" in the way most people are getting with a bedded stock (IE: Gap and push down to lock in) but it does lock down in a way that requires significant pressure on the trigger guard and to insert the rear chassis pin.

The scope will be mounted using two separate rings. Not a single piece ring pair. I'm stubborn and "like" old mounting solutions, not because it was a superior method!

I plan on outlining all of my intended tweaks to the chassis as they happen. That includes some form of tensioning device for the oprod guide to see if I can't apply some fore end pressure in addition to the other locking devices in the chassis. The goal is to find the best accuracy I can out of this platform! Handloads soon too as indicated in previous posts.

 

Nice looking build.
Troy has that chassis on sale for Black Friday for $299 if anyone is interested.

 

Wow! That's a heck of a deal on the bare chassis! Makes me wish I waited. Ohh well...

Anyway, nothing new to really update anyone on. My scope didn't arrive last week before the holidays (go figure) and I'll most likely be giving them a call to see if they had a better idea on when it might ship or show up. I also ordered a Sadlak TiN Piston (non NM Grooved) to see if it helps drop group sizes any.

In the meantime I've been doing a lot of reading and "pondering" the various ways to really lock down this action into this stock. I mean, it's REALLY tight in there at the moment but I'm wondering if there isn't a better way to squeeze ever last fraction of a MOA out of the rifle.

What I'm getting at is there are two common ways to accurize the M14 platform:
1.) Front ferrule tension
2.) Free float the gas cylinder by supporting the barrel at the op rod

The nice thing about the Troy MCS is the chassis is built like a tank. I'm really curious what would happen if I tested the following things:

1.) Create some device that pushes up on the op rod guide to add tension at the front ferrule and give some more adjustment to the front ferrule tension. The tensioner would have a v-channel in it to help the op rod return to the same place each time and would be set up to be an interference fit in the lower part of the chassis so the tension block itself wouldn't change location in the stock. Thinking about going as far as drilling and tapping the bottom rail on the MCS chassis to give adjustable tension via a set screw.

2.) Creating a pair of v-blocks to lock the front band permanently to the chassis so it can't move.

3.) A combination of both.

The last two really intrigue me. In doing so you'd effectively half the barrel length free to whip about. If you look at all the major "accuracy" platforms (bolt actions, AR15's, AR10's) they all seem to free float as much barrel as possible but all of their moving parts are contained within the receivers. What would happen to an M14 platform rifle if we locked down everything that was moving so it couldn't move and left only the exposed barrel to have any movement at all? I think the MCS is more than strong enough to test this and Laz would say, removes some of the "magic" and replaces it with science... surely someone has tried this already though and should know what to expect? I can't seem to find anything close to a discussion on the merits (if any) of doing so.

I've done A LOT of reading (gone through the entire accuracy and modern M14 forums and read everything that caught my eye as pertinent) and haven't seen much on the way of discussing it.

Thoughts?

 

How much that sucker weigh? I'm guessing you're two treads short of an M1 Abrams.
GI5

 

Uhm, last time I weighed it using my bathroom scale it was a rather svelte 12lbs but that was not a precise measurement. It's not light, so the "nutnheavy" crowd will certainly be complaining but for my intended role (possible use as a police DM rifle, aaaaand target accuracy in a good ergo platform) the weight isn't that big of a deal to me. I'll get used to it!

So long as the groups tighten up to the MOA to MOA and a half range with good hand loads, I'll be happy. I don't want to test handloads until the scope gets here though!

I'll be a lot closer to owning a tank when the scope gets here! GI5

 

I'm actually holding out for the Dale Monroe signature model to come out..

 

Me to. CHP going on 11 years. Don't tell anyone tho, I'm trying to keep it a secret.
GI2
BTW, I sent my M25 off to Jon Wolfe to get an 18.5" barrel put on & one of his custom stocks made. Been 4 months now so hope to see it soon.

 

2 Years in a small I-80 town in Nebraska. Just a young pup compared to most!

The waiting is really killing me on this scope. It's been 3 weeks and not even an estimated shipping date. Maybe I just like "control" too much but it seems odd that I don't even have that. I'll be calling again in the morning. Tried today but they are stupid busy because of Cyber Monday. I've also got that ZQI stuff I want to shoot and a bunch of handloads.

 

Scope finally arrived! Got everything mounted up and sighted in "well enough" for load development. Sun was going down a bit faster than I really wanted it to so I didn't do a lot of load development shooting.





Doesn't shoot half bad either with handloads!



That's a 10 shot group at 100 yards in a 1.5" by 1.125" group center to center! Buddy shot his .22LR on the same target (jerk!) so that's what the small holes are. 10th round is somewhere in that hole in the upper left of the group.

This was the load I started with and it shot that well. Cycled fine too! What that tells me is there is an accuracy node somewhere around 40gr of Varget in those CBC NATO spec cases. I need to back off the load to probably 39 and work up from there to see if it is any tighter before that. I also need to test 40.3 and see if it tightens up any.

Nothing above this really shot worth a dang. Lots of 2"+ groups at 100 yards. Average in the 2.5" range. Only thing I wish I would have done was bring a chronograph and my 3/8" wrench. Gas plug was coming loose by the end of the whole thing and I have no idea what velocity these 168gr SMK's are coming out of the gun at.

If you notice I have a washer under the gas plug. I happened to have a washer with the correct thickness I needed to tweak the dwell time on this gun. I went to the gas plug first because it was cheap, easily reversible and I noticed the gas scoring on the piston was concentrated towards the muzzle end. I figured this would help the piston be centered more on where the gas port is in the gas cylinder. It did help some, but not a lot.

Ohh yeah! I added the Sadlak TiN NM piston (non-grooved) to the whole shebang. I need to do some accuracy testing to see if it did anything. Also on the short list of "what to buy" is some Isopropyl Alcohol to clean the gas cylinder and piston up with to keep it dry after cleaning.


I did shoot some 175gr SMK's on top of 41gr of Varget and Winchester 7.62x51 "NATO" cases (not stamped) and had a 2"x2" 10 round group at 100 yards shooting very quickly with a loose gas plug. I've got more of that loaded up that I hope to give a better chance to with a correctly torqued down gas plug!

 

Alright, time for an update! There have been a few changes to the rifle, mostly cosmetic (Butler Creek flip covers for the scope) but one functional. I've swapped out the flash hider for the SEI Vortex flash hider to simply eliminate the castle nut configuration for the default flash hider for the impending "work" I plan on doing to this chassis for the sake of accuracy.

I also spent a lot of time gathering information for the loads I plan on making for this rifle involving Sierra's Tipped Match Kings in 168gr and 175gr loadings. I've shot, A LOT, of the 175gr TMK's and have been less than impressed with the accuracy in my rifle. The best group this Loaded put out with said 175gr rounds was a 1.5" square 10 round group at 100 yards. When I started working around that data point and hit that powder load a second time, I did not observe such accuracy at all the second time, about 1 7/8" square 10 round group at 100 yards. This, ironically, mirrors my experience with 175gr rounds out of a 1:10 twist R700 I used to own. Basically the 175gr rounds were never as accurate as the 168's could be at the 100 yard line. I'm sure there is more to that than just a blanket statement, something I'm doing is wrong with the loads.

So what do you do? You buy the 168gr Tipped Match Kings and you go to work. Sadly, I haven't had the opportunity to do the load workup yet. The interesting part about the 168gr TMK's is that their BC's are very close to the 175gr rounds and according to QuickTarget, will stay supersonic to 1150 yards when pushed out the barrel around 2650 fps. If these rounds shoot nearly as well as the standard 168gr SMK's did, that will make for a very good load for both long range 1000 yard stuff and the closer in 600 yard stuff that I have better access to (local police range has a 600 yard max range).

What else? Well I keep buying up the ZQI ammo that comes up at Walmart. In developing loads in QuickLoad, one of the aspects of the software is water capacity. I measured the MKE brass and was impressed with the consistency of the internal volume in spite of the total mass of the brass being different. All of the brass I measured (about 15 pieces) came in right around 56.2gr of water +/- .3gr. Given how cheap this ammo is, and how reliable it has been (280 rounds fired, zero failures of any type). It groups up about 3.5-4 MOA at 100 yards now and I shoot a box or two of this before I do any serious shooting for the day just for the brass and to settle the action in the stock since I keep tinkering with it!

I also contacted Troy, here is what I was told:
In my searches for accurizing M14's in the Troy MCS, I found Law483 had made some comment about PMing him about getting some information so I opted to message him via email, which I found on his website, and have yet to hear a response. This forced me to call Troy directly and speak with their gunsmith, Ed, about the Troy MCS chassis and common "mistakes" done by those using them.

Ed explained to me that the MCS chassis is intended to free float the barrel of an M1A from receiver to muzzle and that a few of the common accuracy related issues when using the MCS stem from a lack of understanding how the chassis was designed:

1.) The biggest reason I called was because of the adjustable front band that is supposed to hold the upper and lower portions of the chassis together. Ed told me that there should be NO pressure on the lower stock from this band. Again, the barrel is intended to be free floated and the barrel should freely move inside the front band points. Mine does not, even with all the tension backed off, but the lower part of the stock flexes like mad!. A part of me wants to remove the entire block up there just to see how accurate his statement is. No pun intended.

2.) Ed went on to say that people are shimming the gas cylinders on their M1A's and M14's to achieve a specific lock timing for the figure 8 nut up front. He said that this is incorrect for the MCS. The stock was designed and intended to have the lock up of that gas cylinder lock in the 7-8 o'clock position. He went on further to state that this is the way the military intended the rifle to be shot and that the gas plug will hold the gas cylinder against the gas cylinder lock and keep it in place making a shim completely unnecessary.

He also expressed that some folks will shim their gas cylinders to the point where it distorts the gas cylinder and causes it to bind. I explained to him that I tilt tested the rifle before final assembly and checked to make sure the piston had free movement. I also explained to him that I've shot some 500 rounds through my M1A in his chassis.

3.) He said another common point of failure in accuracy is the tension on the trigger assembly from the set screws. He said that most people set them to the instructions (1/8" from the trigger when the guard starts requiring real force to close) and either don't have the screws backed out uniformly or don't have enough tension. He said that the proper tension amount, from his experience, generally requires a person to hit the trigger guard with the palm of their hand to actually seat the trigger assembly fully in the stock and that you need a tool to pop the trigger guard out. Pretty interesting comment when you think about how "locked down" the action is supposed to be in the chassis without the trigger guard in place!

4.) The last piece of advice he implied was to stop shooting for groups with an M14 pattern rifle and went on and on about how he has never shot an M14 for accuracy but does shoot Troy's AR15's and AR10's. He said that he built a really nice National Match M14 using USGI parts and a Kreiger heavy barrel, put it in the safe, and never shot it. Of course, I really wanted to throw the phone for implying such an asinine thing, but what do I know!

Finally, I suggested that if these issues are so common with users of the chassis that their gunsmith, who is insulated from the customer by two separate phones (main operator @ troy, then tech support), is hearing about it, they should probably update the installation manual to include these points. I pointed out that the front barrel band pressure (none, supposedly) is not stated and definitely not clear. It simply states to tighten the screws while holding the band. Ok, how am I supposed to hold said band?

At any rate, I've made some tweaks to the way my rifle is installed in the chassis and I'll be testing them again here soon enough.

If, for whatever reason, the accuracy doesn't improve much to give me some 175gr loads in the 1-1.5" MOA range, I'm probably going to have this gun rebarreled with a Krieger barrel.

More to follow!

 

Whiskey....I always like to use a good factory match loading like Federal GM Match 168gr to test accuracy(M852 or Black Hills 168gr match work also) or at least have something to compare handloads to.

As for that CBC brass.....my buddy bought a bunch of once fired, processed ready to load brass(FC, LC, CBC) also some brand new Remington brass to make up some .308 Tracer ammo using pulled 30-06 Orange Tip Tracer bullets and BLC-2. We loaded everything but the CBC with 44gr.....well we loaded a few....and they were extremely hot. Everything else was fine with the pressures. We had to drop the load on the CBC brass down to 37-38grains. After he shot the CBC loads one time, they went in the scrap bucket. The brass was really thick, thus reducing case capacity.

 

Yeah I didn't have any pressure issues with the CBC cases but they are going in the recycle bin with the WCC cases too. I'm using MKE almost exclusively at this point for reloads because the case volume was so consistent.

I have some 175gr and 168gr FGMM for accuracy testing coming. Just waiting for the Local Gun Shop to hurry up and get it here since no one in town carries either!

 

Nice build thread. You're definitely thorough. Troy doesn't have the popularity around here like the Sage, or even the Blackfeather. What made you choose the Troy?

 

Experience with the chassis, recoil reduction, no need for an additional scope mount and an accuracy improvement. I know about the Sage and the Blackfeather and thought long and hard about the Blackfeather stock but in the end realized that I could get what I wanted from the Troy and figure out the rest. The biggest advantage of the BF and Sage is because of the free floated barrel. I have access to a machinist and a background in engineering so designing my own setup to free float the barrel from the spring guide is a possibility if I can't find other improvements to the chassis to get the accuracy I desire!

I also plan to try a USGI Fiberglass stock and a more conventional setup just to see what, if anything, I'm giving up over that setup. Like Lazerus, I'm a bit frustrated with the lack of "science" in accurizing an M14/M1A so I'm documenting everything I do for the greater good of the community!

 

Realistically, groups out of a loaded will probably be at best about 1.5". Of course, that is when it's in the factory stock. If you can get better than that, great but I wouldn't expect it. Also, you might want to try some tried and true accuracy loads. 40 grains of Varget seems pretty weak to me... given that my 175 grain load is 42.6 grains of IMR 4064 under a Nosler 175 custom comp bullet.

Here is my recommendation.

1. Shoot some FGMM in 168 or 175 to get a solid baseline. If your gun doesn't group pretty well with this ammo, something is wrong. If you still can't get it to group in the troy stock, put it back into the factory stock and compare results. Once you have fixed the issues with your gun, proceed to step 2.

2. Buy a powder that is known to work well in M1A for 168 and 175 grain bullets (IMR 4985, 4064, 3031, H4895, Reloader 15, etc). Some folks like Varget, but most tend to stay away from it in this platform. That doesn't mean your gun won't like it, but odds are your gun might like those others better.

3. Search the forum for some known accuracy loads and work up some loads using the tried and true powders I mentioned above. (LC Brass, IMR 4895 @ 41.5 grains, 2.8 COAL 168 SMK or LC Brass, IMR 3031 @ 39.5 grains, 2.8 COAL with 168 SMK for example). 9 times out of 10, if you work up loads around these values, your gun will shoot it well. Of course, pay attention to pressure signs and all the other safety stuff that goes along with hand loading.

4. Don't give up on that barrel just yet. You've changed so many things from a stock M1A that finding your secret sauce probably isn't as simple as barrel swap. Also, keep that darn gas plug tight... it should never shoot loose.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

1.) I'll be curious to see what the FGMM will shoot like in this gun but I'm not holding my breath for a huge increase in accuracy. I worked up loads across a pretty wide array of powder weights just to see where the nodes were at. The 168's I didn't get the full spectrum on though, the 175's I did until they were pushing velocities I wasn't overly thrilled about shooting a lot of without a different gas plug or piston (my Sadlak piston isn't the grooved one since I wanted to shoot that ZQI stuff for the brass). Best grouping of the 175's was at 41.7gr of Varget and produced a 1.75x1.625 10 shot group. When I loaded around this in tenth of a grain increments 41.7 and 41.8gr produced the tightest two groups but they had opened up to around 2". I'll probably use this for my remaining 175gr TMK's and just call it quits with 175's until I run out of Varget (about 2lbs left).

Yes, the 168gr load of 40.0 gr of Varget was really, really, really slow. I'll be curious to see what happens when I push these tipped versions at faster velocities.

2.) I've not been able to find any IMR powders compatible for the M1A's gas system locally. Too many benchrest folks with long barrels and stupid slow powders or AR's with short barrels shooting fast powders. I'd love to get some 4064 and 4895 after this Varget runs out. That said, I had amazing results with Varget in my R700 and had this powder left over from it. It'd group 168's up into some stupid silly groups for a pencil barrel R700 SPS DM in an AICS! GI5

3.) Already bookmarked them for when I run out of this Varget!

4.) Part of my impetus to calling Troy was to figure out why this gun isn't grouping that well in their stock. I haven't had the opportunity to try their recommendations out yet but they seem a bit... out there (not shimming the gas cylinder was a curious one, but after he explained the stock to me, it might work). I've got some feelers out there for some USGI Fiberglass stocks to put this thing into as well. Gas plug issue has been resolved with the judicial use of a torque wrench! Hasn't come loose while firing since. With the fine threads I was really hesitant to put too much force on it before using a torque wrench, then I went and got my torque wrench and saw exactly how much force the recommended torque values are! GI3

Keep the ideas coming! I'm hoping for better groups than this since I know a off the shelf loaded should be in about the same range as this setup is.

 

Hit up the online resellers of powder because you're right, it can be harder to find depending on your locale. Powder Valley, or Midsouth Shooting supply are my 2 goto places. Don't order onesy twosey though as the hazmat fee will kill you. Get your primers at the same time as you can buy up to 48 lbs of powder for the same hazmat fee. They sell bullets too and at a good price comparatively as well. You might also try shooters pro shop for Nosler blem bullets. They fly just fine and are wayyyy cheaper. I got 1000 175 Custom comp blems for about $190. They sell overruns too, but the blemished ones are usually cheaper.

Also, try a standard SMK or Nosler CC instead of the TMK. I have yet to hear of anyone shooting the M1A getting stellar groups with those bullets. Perhaps they do best closer to lands of a bolt rifle, but the standard SMK's don't mind a jump from 2.8 or 2.810 and it's hard to argue with success given that is what folks shoot out of the M1A for accuracy. Sure Bergers have a good rep too, but they are spendy.

As for your 175 load... I had a hard time finding the right powder for this bullet. I couldn't make 3031 or 4166 do anything impressive so I finally got some IMR 4064 and worked up from 41.5 to 42.6 and low and behold... 1 MOA groups. Yes, it's a fairly stout load, but the groups don't lie. Pressure signs are are good as well and isn't over the max, so I like that load in LC brass for 600 yards plus. If you aren't shooting that far, you might want try some lighter bullets like the 125 TNT or the or 125 & 135 SMKs as those shoot quite nicely from my NM as well (same barrel as yours).

Anyway, good luck and keep us informed. Also, when you shoot groups, measure from center instead of giving box diameters so we know what size the group really is. Most folks generally go with 5 shot groups on this forum but if you want to shoot 10... data is all that much accurate.

One final question... how's your trigger feel? Nice crisp break around 4.5 to 5 lbs?

 

I'll do some searching. The original 175gr SMK group I shot was in WCC cases with 41gr of Varget. That grouped right around 2" but I didn't work up a load and didn't care much about the Winchester NATO cases or the CBC cases for that fact. I'll have to do some shopping around. The local gun shop is going to get those FGMM's in and that'll be the real "test". I have a feeling I'll end up shooting the 175 TMK's again after all this is done just to make sure. I think I've convinced myself to plunk down the coin for a JRA 1903A4 Springfield for S&G's and a 30-06 rifle for some good ole fashioned fun and I'm sure the 175's will fly fine out of that! GI2

I measure my groups center to center, the "bars" I use are just to remind myself what direction the distance is actually measuring. I'm also not getting uber precise with the measurements so I'm just eyeballing with a tape measure the centers. The values you are hearing me say are center to center distances!

Definite no on the trigger. It's smooth, no idea what the weight is, but there is A LOT of creep in the second stage and is one of the more annoying aspects of this gun. For whatever reason, when I'm laying prone the second stage creep is VERY noticeable but when I'm at home just dry firing it seems to be nonexistent. I don't trust myself with an Arkansas stone to stone the triggers myself and I'm too hands on to allow a gunsmith to do it for me! I like learning too much. GI5 I'm really waiting for ShootingSight to get his competition hammers in stock so I can do both at the same time and fix the trigger that way.

So I DO have a slight update. I went ahead and took my shim out from behind the gas cylinder and checked to see if the barrel could move in their front band system. It could but there was some resistance to it that was from contact with the band. They claim the barrel is "free floated" in this setup but there was a lot of resistance to free movement of the barrel... sooo... I took out the amateur gunsmith tool (Dremel) and floated it. The gas cylinder lock also locked up at the 7 o'clock position like Ed said. After that, the barrel now moves more freely in the front band like I imagine it is supposed to. If it was supposed to be floated there, we'll soon find out, and if not, Troy will be getting a phone call so I can buy a new band! I also tweaked the trigger group pressure by backing out the screws a quarter turn. A LOT more force (but not enough I felt like I was going to break it) to seat the trigger guard.

I'm going to try and get out to the range tomorrow. I've got court over a loose dog I cited someone for in the afternoon so hopefully I can get out there after that and try this stuff out. I'm also going to throw together the ladder test for the 168gr TMK's and see how they shoot.

As it stands, I've shot 100 rounds of CBC M80 ball, 60 rounds of Winchester M80 "Match" (lol), 280 rounds of ZQI M80, 50 rounds of 175gr SMK handloads, 160 rounds of 175gr TMK handloads and 50 rounds of 168gr SMK handloads. 700 rounds total of .308 in the brief time I've owned this gun.

 

So, I did some load development today using 175gr TMK's again. I knew the "range" that these things would group up with regards to powder load so I started there, again, for the second set of 100 rounds in tenth grain increments. Before beginning to shoot I shot 40 rounds of ZQI at a reasonably rapid pace. This was intended to set the components again as every time you take the rifle apart, it loosens up some and there is some settling. Also, I cleaned the gas piston up so it'd cycle freely under it's own weight so that needs to be "fouled" up. I started to notice towards the end of shooting the ZQI that it was grouping up better. The majority of the shots were falling right around 3" at 100 yards which is on the better end of what it was doing before "free floating" the barrel. Also, because it was a rather blazingly hot 34º outside, I figured a little bit of heat in the barrel and gas system was in order.

Starting at 41.0gr of Varget and a 2.85 COAL (magazine length), I worked my way up to 42.0gr. I Skipped 41.5gr. Brass is MKE, primers are CCI 200. Here are the targets:









Blegh.... 10 shot groups and the only ones that even look decent are the 42.0gr load, 41.2gr load and 41.3gr load. Now if you look at the 41.3gr load, you'll notice I did the sub group and here is why:



This 5 round gem popped up while I was shooting. The sixth shot fell into this same group, and then the rifle opened up. Why? I can only surmise that the rifle was warm when I started shooting and then cooled off sufficiently enough to open up the groups again on shots 7-10 because I went downrange to measure this group at 5 rounds. That sucks because that group is pretty damn nice! That also tells me that 34º is too cold to do load development in for this rifle. That sucks too as I like shooting!

I'm really thinking this trigger needs some serious love. The creep in the second stage is unbearingly noticeable. It is something that needs to change as I really do feel that it is holding back the shooting. I'm so used to precision rifle triggers so this is a bit different for me. Also, all the AR's I've shot have seemingly less creep. For being a "National Match" trigger it sure as heck leaves a lot to be desired!

I also have a Schuster adjustable gas plug to mess around with now. It came in today while I was out at the range so I didn't get to play with it all.

 

Any chance you can put the rifle back into it's original stock and shoot some groups that way... just to see how it shoots in a baseline configuration?

 

I have two options if I want to do it that way. The first is to return it completely to stock. If I do that, I have no scope. I can put it in the factory stock with the Troy upper portion like their Battle Rail they make. That'd allow me to use the scope. When I first got this rifle, it grouped up at right around 3.5-4" with M80 Ball at 100 yards with no modifications. Never shot any match ammo or handloads out of it in that configuration though.

 

Yeah, M80 is not usually a good way to gauge the accuracy of anything. Generally, I would think your loaded should be able to hold at least 2 inch groups with the right ammo but knowing what that perfect combination is isn't always easy...which is why I suggested trying tried and true loads in an earlier post.

I still think you should try different powder/bullet combos before passing any final judgement... some rifles simply don't like certain bullets. Go lighter... like 168's,155's or even the 125 TNT. Try a faster powder than Varget... Mix it up a bit before you end up shooting out that barrel without anything worthwhile to show for it besides a lot of recoil therapy.

 

Indeed. I have a pound of 4895 and 4064 coming to play with. I also have a 1903A4 Springfield Rock Ridge Machine clone coming that these 175's will probably shoot great out of assuming I don't run out of them loading up 4895 and 4064 test loads!

I need to load up the 168gr TMK's and see if they do any better. Like I said, I want a 1000 yard capable round at a minimum. I'm hoping an accuracy node will pop up in the powder range necessary to push these to 1000. Their BC is high enough to do it.

I also have one other thing I plan on trying. Troy swears up and down that their stock "free floats" the barrel assembly. The front band's sole purpose is to keep the upper and lower stock portions from coming apart. To truly 100% free float the barrel, all it would take is for me to remove the block entirely and see if that helps any. If that doesn't work, the stock front barrel band fits over the front stock. That would effectively convert the chassis into an overgrown aluminum standard style stock. Will it work? I don't know, but it's something to try. There is some downward pressure on the barrel in that configuration.

After that, my options are to rebarrel (yay?!) or mess around with stock configurations and glass bedding. That would mean buying a USGI Fiberglass and bedding it (I "like" wood, but recognize the faults it has with temperature/humidity changes) and buying a new scope mount and rings.

 

Well, if it's 1k, then yeah 175's are the ticket, but they don't have to be TMK's. Also, I think your loads are bit light. With IMR 4064, my 175 CC load is in the 42.6 grain range with a 2.800 COAL, and I would expect it to be similar for Varget given what I hear about that powder and it's speed and your COAL is even longer so you would need even more powder to get the pressure right...

The photos below are of my 175 Custom Comp workup with my National Match model (same barrel as yours). The squares are 5/8's of an inch so just look at my measurements at the bottom of each page for the first 3 and next to the group for the last and final page. Those are all 5 shot groups by the way, hard to tell for the 42.6 grain load.

Initially, I wouldn't load so many rounds at various charges... just do 5 at each charge until you find one that looks promising... then tweak the COAL until you've got it shooting as well as it can with that powder/bullet combo. Also, don't be afraid take your charges higher using Varget. According to IMR, Load data for that bullet weight is 42 to 45 grains of Varget for a 175 grain SMK. If you want it to go 1000 yards accurately, they have to have some oomph behind them.

 

I did a much broader ladder than this initially when I first got these rounds. From the "min" listed in the Lyman reloading manual (which isn't that accurate) to the max in QuickLoad for my given case dimensions in half grain increments. The 41gr range was interestingly enough the most accurate range. 41.5 showed the best promise and as I found in two separate tests now, the gun seems to "like" (if you can call it liking) that range give or take. 41.3 showed promise on this last outing, 41.7, 41.8 on the outing before, none are as tight as they probably should be.

I did the same thing in .3gr increments with the 168 SMK's since I needed to know within a reasonable amount of accuracy where the second box would go (I ended up not recording this data so I'll end up doing it again when I start buying SMK's again). At this point, the TMK's are going to be used for the 1903A4 when it arrives since they do not tolerate jumping as much as the SMK's do. I'll actually be able to load to the lands on the 03A4 and test there. Back to SMK's for this M1A. It only makes sense when the magazine is your limiting factor.

Also, the TMK's higher BC means it doesn't need as much powder to hit 1000 yards. In fact, the 175's at 2500 and the 168's at 2600 are all that is needed, so finding accuracy nodes at those ranges was part of the plan. With the adjustable gas plug, I may start playing around with hotter loads for flatter trajectories, but that'll require me to buy some SMK's again! (Soon!)

 

Did you actually measure your speeds with a chronograph?

I have a feeling you are correct about the TMK not liking a jump like the SMK do (have yet to see any stellar groups shot from an M1A with that bullet), but my biggest point is that your groups aren't all that impressive at the lower charges so take it hotter to see what you get. Almost all load data for the 168's and 175 will assume a coal of around 2.8 to 2.810 and with you loading out to 2.850 your weaker charges are even weaker as a result. Go hotter and see what you get, your rifle can handle it, even without the adjustable plug... I am not suggesting going to the hairy edge of the max load, but if you have your rifle setup the way Troy suggests, then what else is there to check besides the load?

 

My sanity! GI3

QuickLoad says all else being the same, this is about a 20 FPS difference between 2.800 and 2.850 at a given load with Varget. My max load tested (42.0) actually puts out the same FPS as 41.7gr @ 2.800. Of course, Varget is not 4064 or 4895. From testing though, 41.7gr of Varget seems to spit out some of the better groups with these bullets. That load is about 50 FPS slower than the standard of 41.5gr of 4064, 2.800 COAL, 175gr SMK's in military brass that is so popular here on these forums and the load I made that replicated that speed with Varget was not as accurate as 41.7gr of Varget at 2.850"

FWIW, I'm headed to the local gun store to see if my FGMM is in yet and to put this trigger on a pull gauge and find out how "bad" it is. And because I like tweaking with stuff, the ShootingSight Trigger and Hammer have been bought to and I plan on doing a formal review on it when it arrives! That'll eliminate at least help isolate the shooter from the equation.

 

Good luck... I hope you find what you're looking for.

 

Well I found out something. Trigger breaks between 5lbs 11 oz and 6lbs even so it's on the heavy side. That at least gives me a comparison point. Got lots of things to test so that'll keep me occupied! GI5

Thanks for your help!

 

As an update, I went and shot this gun today at the range with the new handloads using 4064 and the 175gr TMK's. Groups were consistently bad. Worse, actually, than the Varget loads (around 2-2.5"). I don't plan on giving up on the 4064 though. I have 200 175gr SMK's coming that I'll test the oh familiar loads. I suspect the TMK's are a little too sensitive to how far they are jumping. The TMK's will be perfect for my Rock Ridge 1903A4 that I can load them to the lands and still get them in the magazine.

Also got to test out the Shooting Sight trigger and hammer and I was extremely impressed all the way until the creep screw backed out and left me with a BUNCH of trigger creep! GI3 Apparently the loctite I put in on the threads didn't hold. I've reapplied it and will be testing it again. If it keeps backing out, I'll be going to blue loctite instead of the supplied purple. That said, you never get to appreciate your stock trigger group until you ADD creep to it! GI5 Trigger is set right around 4.5lbs and has zero creep.

So what now? Well, the Troy MCS is off the gun, and it is back in its walnut stock. Scope is off too until I can get a new scope mount. I've gone ahead and made some of the NM modifications. The stock ferrule has been modified and opened up. The stock itself has been clearanced around the gas cylinder and oprod guide to eliminate points of contact there. Plastic Handguard was trimmed too. I've shimmed the front of the receiver to increase front end tension. The goal is start ruling out things to narrow it down to either the ammo (FGMM in 168gr and 175gr will be here tomorrow) and the barrel. My guess is we are going to run out of things to test and the barrel is all that is going to be left. That will make me seriously disappointed but I've got no qualms about replacing it! I'll end up bedding this rifle into this receiver before I make that commitment though. Gotta rule that out before going to the extremes!

Stay tuned for more later!

 

What were your 4064 loads?

 

All of these are with MKE Brass, CCI 200 primers, 175gr Sierra TMK's and 4064:

41.0
41.3
41.5
41.7
41.9
42.1
42.3
42.5
42.7
42.9

Ten of each. OAL was 2.82. The TMK's are longer than the SMK so this should replicate similar ogive locations. Cases were all FL sized with shoulders bumped back to ~1.629 which is .003 from my 1.632 headspace.

I fired off 40 rounds of ZQI M80 in relatively rapid fire before starting to shoot these loads and hand checked the barrel temperature. It was warm but not hot. These were shot at a relatively slow pace of about a round every 3-5 seconds and the only down time between strings was for reloading the magazines. Best group was the 42.9 loads at just under 2" at 100 yards. Shots were made prone from the bipod.

I'll re-run this ladder test when the 175gr SMK's show up to be 100% certain, but I get the distinct feeling that this gun wont group the 175gr TMK's worth a dang. I haven't loaded up the 168gr TMK's yet and if I can push them fast enough they'll go to 1000 yards due to the .535 BC. Problem is if these are like the 175's, they probably wont group worth a dang either! GI2

I got a call from the gun store and my FGMM is in in both 168gr and 175gr so we can get a real gauge of accuracy.

 

I agree that if they were going to group for you, they would have given your loads. You said you were putting it back into it's walnut stock....once you get the FGMM, please let us know how the rifle does with that ammo. If it's decent, you should be able to put it back into the troy and tweak it until you can get the troy to meet or exceed the accuracy of the walnut.

 

We'll see. The Troy and the Walnut stock use two completely different methods of "restraining" the barrel. The Troy doesn't, it free floats the barrel, and the walnut uses the ferrule for pressure. I'm beginning to wonder if the barrel isn't stiff enough to actually shoot free floated without support. Unlike the Blackfeather and Sage, the only support the Troy MCS gives the barreled action is at the action via the take down pin, side screw mount, and the tension between the receiver and trigger guard. The barrel has no support for the entire length and I've tried everything the folks at Troy have said to try. The only thing I haven't done is attempt to use the Troy like a standard stock. I'm not sure the lower part of the front of the MCS is stiff enough to provide any downward tension though.

Ohh the joys never stop do they!? GI5

 

Looks like your M14 mated with an AR15.

 

That was partially the point! GI2 There isn't a better semi auto action in this world for just being tough as nails. My hope was the MCS would improve accuracy by a large portion and make this a tackdriver without having to spend a bunch of money on scope mounts that may or may not cause problems while reducing recoil and all that happy jazz. I still like the chassis system's ergo's but I'm less than pleased with the accuracy of this rifle given what others are accomplishing in standard configurations.

Perhaps you're right in that the barrel isn't stiff enough for free floating (J.C. Garand might have had a reason for drawing the barrel the way he did).. but it's hard to say when you've really only tested one kind of match grade bullet. I think after you compare the walnut vs the troy with a known quantity load (FGMM), you'll be able to draw more definitive conclusions on how to proceed.

Yeah true. I wont shoot all of my FGMM at once so I can dump this back into the chassis and test it in the chassis too.

 

Perhaps you're right in that the barrel isn't stiff enough for free floating (J.C. Garand might have had a reason for drawing the barrel the way he did).. but it's hard to say when you've really only tested one kind of match grade bullet. I think after you compare the walnut vs the troy with a known quantity load (FGMM), you'll be able to draw more definitive conclusions on how to proceed.