First, a little history. M14's were zeroed at the factory with the rear sight on the center line. The front sight was adjusted to get the rounds on target at 100 meters. A rest/cradle was used. The groups were large, as the rifle was only required to shoot about 5 moa. The front sight had to stay within the edges of the sight base, or the rifle was rebarreled. Final windage adjustment would be done when the soldier zeroed the rifle. These adjustments were made using the rear knob. The odds of any rifle shooting POA=POI with both the front and rear sights centered were like hitting the lottery. It usually takes a little adjustment of each to zero the rifle.

Most rifles I have used over the decades required the both the front and rear sights to need adjustment. I don't like the front sight all the way to one edge, so I keep it slightly off center and make the final adjustments at the rear, just as it was done on an original M14.

I would expect any factory rifle to be zeroed with the rear sight no more than a line off center and the front sight somewhere that is not on the very edge of the base. A compromise, so to speak. Many of my rifles have been from the '90s, when the windage lines on receiver were done by drunk monkeys. There is no center line and the others are barely distinguishable. You have to count clicks from the edge to find the true center.

You can check the barrel index by placing levels on the front sight base and on the receiver flat behind the sight.

 

Thanks, I appreciate your insight. I’m willing to accept the sight being slightly off center, but not at the sight base edge, or hanging over. And I don’t want to use more than a couple windage clicks to get the rifle zero’s - I want to save them for their intended purpose - shooting in the wind.

 

Sorry for the long post, but need some advice and counsel from the experts on this forum. Some background:

I bought a new SA M1A National Match rifle in January, and immediately entered it in the SA Warranty system. Went to the range a week or so later. Following the procedures in the manual (10 clicks elevation, rear sight centered) I fired several rounds at a zero target from 50 yards. None of the rounds hit paper. I moved the target to 25 yards with the same result. In an attempt to “bracket” where rounds were hitting, I fired rounds at both left and right edge of the target, and found the rounds were striking far to the right of the point of aim. As a young Soldier, I shot the M1A on an Army rifle team, and am very familiar with sight picture/sight alignment, so I assure you, it wasn’t my sight picture that was causing this much error.

Rather than wasting more ammo, I returned home, set a target at 25 yards and used an in-the-chamber laser bore sight. It showed laser dot was far right (approximately 10”) of the point of aim. I loosened the front sight and moved the front sight incrementally, checking the sight picture with each adjustment. Even with the front sight moved to the far right edge of the sight base, I had to further adjust windage left 10 clicks to get the sights aligned with the laser dot.

Understanding that these laser boresighters can be inaccurate, I rotated the boresighter a quarter of a turn, three times, and checked alignment with previous position. Boresighter seems to be accurate.

From research on this forum, believe my problem is that the barrel was not properly indexed. For a match quality weapon, this is unacceptable. Sent an e-mail message to Springfield Armory Warranty describing the problem, and Lexi quickly set up a return for me. Was told 2-4 weeks for a return. After a full month, got an e-mail that indicated the rifle was fixed; invoice said they inspected rifle, re-indexed the the barrel and test fired the rifle.

FedEx delivery was terrible - spent three days at home waiting for delivery - on the third day of promised delivery, rifle finally arrived.

My issue is, rifle has same problem as before. It appears the only thing SA did was to center the front sight on the base, and center the rear sight.
In order for point of impact and point of aim to be the same, with rear sight centered, I had to move front sight to the point it was overhanging the front sight base by .030, measured with a digital caliper. Is this acceptable for a match quality rifle? I expected something better.

I‘ve sent another message to SA describing this and asking how I can get this rifle fixed properly. Anyone else have this kind of problem? Any advice as to my next course of action? I’d really like to be shooting this rifle and not sending it back and forth to the manufacturer.

Thanks for any input….

Steve

Sorry your having issues with your NM. I understand SAI has stopped making the NM model. Most companies have a hot line or expedited call procedure. Ask to talk to someone in authority to make sure it’s fixed right this time.

 

All of my Springfield NM rifles with the .062 NM front sight perfectly centered are either dead centered on the rear sight center line or no more than one line to the right.

 

Can't understand what the front sight has to do with an non indexing barrel. When the muzzle is out of windage, the front sight is too. I HAVE an non indexing rifle/barrel M1A combo but realized it only after I installed a scope. With iron sights it shoots perfectly center.

 

You are having the same thing happen as I did awhile back as I was trying to get a company's "National Match" muzzle brake to set straight on my rifle. With that on it, my rifle printed way off of center and groups were in the air right or left, depending upon what I was trying with the sights. Get yourself to a hardware store or archery shop and find an aluminum arrow shaft that is a close sliding fit on the top of the lands in your barrel. This arrow shaft is your "range rod" and will tell you real quick if the bullet is making contact with your government flash hider (assume you have this on the barrel). The bullets I was firing thru that "National Match" muzzle brake were making a slight copper tick at about 8:45 in the inside of the crown of that brake. I would take that off and reset the original govt. flash hider, and it shot like a match rifle again (it was not, just shot like it was). The range rod made slight contact exactly where the copper tick mark was being left on the inside of the brake. As this situation developed, I deliberately fired ten shots into a snowbank so that I could capture them for some photography a little later. When the snow melted, I found the bullets were DAMAGED only where they touched the inside of the brake. The company has not see these bullets yet, but they will as soon as I photograph them. They would not cover the National Match brake they made, nor did they even want to see it! It's a moot point now as I threw it into the garbage and it is now residing in a land fill somewhere. $150 dollars all for nothing! Don't clean your barrel until you look for a little rub mark on the inside of your flash hider. Your range rod will tell you where to look if it is making contact
in the flash hider.
GregT.

 

You can check the barrel index by placing levels on the front sight base and on the receiver flat behind the sight.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I believe this is where the issue lies, but I don’t have the tools necessary to check this with any accuracy - that’s what I was expecting SA to do. BTW, they sent me a new FEDEX label to ship the rifle back to them, but not until they can articulate what they will do to the rifle. I was very detailed in my explanation when I sent the rifle last time, so I’m a little surprised it wasn’t repaired. They’ve not responded to the email I sent them yesterday evening - just sent me a new label. Maybe I was a little out of line, but I asked them to define “re-indexed barrel”, and asked if they have any quality control process in place.

 

CSM MC say: " For a match quality weapon, this is unacceptable.?

I agree. For any firearm, fresh from the factory, the shots should go where the sights are pointed. It's totally unsat that SA essentially waved a tuning fork over the rifle and returned it.
Improperly indexed barrel is the first suspect. Did they lose talented match armorers/gunsmiths?
Flash hider misaligned (bullet grazing the FH)?
Is barrel clear of stock?

 

Yep, should shoot where it’s aimed, or very close to it. I’ve had silence from SA, but they did send me another shipping label. At this point, rifle will have spent more time back in the shop than in my custody.

 

Wow. 10" at 25 yards is what I'd call VERY bad. If my mental geometry is correct, the barrel would be over indexed (too tight). That much over index seems like it would be almost visible with the naked eye, but for sure you could check it with parallel bars or even a bubble level. Being that bad, there could even be some part tolerance issues at play in the sight, sight base, splines... Really hard to track down in words here. Hope SAI gets it right for you.

 

This was common in the bad old days of the early SAI loaded rifles with SS barrels. Find a good rifle smith in your area that knows M1’s and M1A’s, have him remove the barrel roll swage it near the shoulder and reinstall it using bubble levels on each end (sight pocket/flash rider) too correctly time it up. Expect the headspace too grow a tad bit.

I recommend Tonyben but he is in the process of a big move too the free state of Florida, and it’s going too be awhile before his set up again. Next on the list is Ted Brown, it’s about a 30min job so turn around time should be pretty quick unless you want it test fired for conformation.

 

This was common in the bad old days of the early SAI loaded rifles with SS barrels. Find a good rifle smith in your area that knows M1’s and M1A’s, have him remove the barrel roll sewage it near the shoulder and reinstall it using bubble levels on each end (sight pocket/flash rider) too correctly time it up.

I recommend Tonyben but he is in the process of a big move too the free state of Florida, and it’s going too be awhile before his set up again. Next on the list is Ted Brown, it’s about a 30min job so turn around time should be pretty quick unless you want it test fired for conformation.

Thanks, I just may do that. I’m going to call SA shortly and discuss the issue with them and their potential fix for this problem. I’m not happy that they had the rifle for a month, and did nothing to improve its accuracy.

 

Thanks! I appreciate that info. I’ll look him up, and if SA can’t get it right, I’ll see if he can help.

steve

 

Sound like the rifle is still under warranty. If that is the case. Tell them to quit wasting your time and put a new tube on it. No amount of roll swaging on the shoulder is going to fix a bad barrel. Roll swaging creates other problems as well with something like this. The barrel blank had some kind of internal stress in it and became more evident once it was contoured. I have had it happen when I am contouring a blank. Usually it happen with pore quality blanks. Best thing to do is have them do the repairs. Put a new tube on it! The other option is to put a new Krieger or Criterion on it. But Krieger's are a year out and criterion is out to August at best. I would offer one up,all I have are sold or waiting for me to install on rifles for customers.

 

Thanks. Yes, still under warranty. As a matter of fact it’s back at SA today. Left a note in the rifle case to call me when they start working on it. Because of their failure to fix it first time around, I want them to explain what they intend to do to fix this rifle.

 

Good , Glade to here it. With any luck maybe they have a good quality tube sitting on the shelf.(Krieger ,Douglas or criterion) It might be a little added cost if they do but well worth it. Hope it all works out.

 

Thanks, I hope so too. Really want to shoot this rifle, and I’m a little irritated SA didn’t do the right thing first time around. If they don’t get it right this time, I’ll find a gunsmith/armorer and pay to have it fixed properly.

 

An update on my rifle: Received rifle back from SA last week and took it to the range. I’m VERY happy with the way it shoots now. Springfield Armory came through. my initial 25 yd target below. 9 rounds, 168 gr match. First six at 6 o’clock. Came up two clicks and three shots in/slightly above X ring. Pushed out to 100 yds in second target. This time shooting 147 gr FMJ. First few rounds were low, adjusted up 2 clicks, and remainder of shots in the black.
I didn’t bring targets, so had to use what the range had on hand - 25 meter pistol targets. REALLY hard to see with old eyes and iron sights.

 

25 meter pistol targets. REALLY hard to see with old eyes and iron sights.

Yeah, the 25 yd Pistol target is actually really close to the proper NRA Highpower reduced 100yd target. Time to consider getting prescription safety glasses. The rule of thumb for M14 and Garand is +.50 higher than your normal distance vision. Helps sharpen the front sight and still can see the target.

 

An update on my rifle: Received rifle back from SA last week and took it to the range. I’m VERY happy with the way it shoots now. Springfield Armory came through.

Glad it worked out. They have excellent customer service, and the lifetime warranty is the best in the business.

 

Good to hear they came through for you.
Now you get to dial in the right ammo... which is the fun part!

 

Did SAI say what they changed in the rifle? A new barrel maybe? It was probably too indexed over. Hard to believe they let a NM rifle out of the shop shooting worse than a pistol at 25 yrds. The top target is where it is suppose to be. Good clusters - were you shooting that offhand? LOL.

 

They re-indexed the barrel. Wish I could shoot that well offhand , but these were from the bench. The 168 gr match rounds are definitely much more accurate than the FMJ rounds.

 

Absolutely unforgivable that they did not pursue that tack the FIRST time that you sent the rifle in with your stated concerns of printing 10" to the right.

When that happens it's one of three things; the barrel is bent, the barrel is over/under indexed, or the face od the receiver in not square/true.

QA & QC has suffered immensely in all aspects of the workforce since the covid plandemic....noboby thinks that they have to work anymore.

 

NIce to see SAI boys work for their money. No reason any rifle from any mfg should leave with an improperly indexed barrel. It is such a simple process to perform correctly.

 

Glad to see the end result. I'll be thrilled if mine comes back that good. That group is with the sights centered for windage?

Just out of curiosity, what was the turn around time? My new loaded is getting rebarrelled. You do have me a little scared if it had to make more than one trip.

 

My observations: 147 bullets are great for plinking, not accuracy.
Your first group with the 168s is horizontal - often due to yanking the trigger. Use finger tip, and pull straight back slowly.

Otherwise - looks like a winner to me!

 

[That group is with the sights centered for windage?

Just out of curiosity, what was the turn around time?

Yes, those groups with front and rear sights centered. Turnaround time is about 3 weeks for mine. I wouldn’t be concerned - SAI does good work, and the best warranty in the industry. Part of my problem was miscommunication. I’m more than confident with their work now that the rifle shoots this way.

 

If I may - your lower pic target seems you got several groups going and pretty wide apart in each group.

But the top pic target - seems you got your bearing and got tight. ..two clover leaves! Whatever you did there- see if you can remember it. The vertical stringing -mainly your breathing technique. Some people say the equipment. But I am a believer of the first - breathing. A lot of rifle shooters breathe -good ones too - do so w/ their chests. You can see their chests rise and fall. The sight picture moves in large swings up and down..and hopefully rests on target at bottom of exhalation. Bothers the hell out of me.

Lots of good shooters here- if you gentlemen and ladies care to share your breathing techniques, we newbies can sure appreciate it.

 

A lot of rifle shooters breathe -good ones too - do so w/ their chests. You can see their chests rise and fall. The sight picture moves in large swings up and down..and hopefully rests on target at bottom of exhalation.

Yes, whether it’s 200yd standing, seated rapids, or 600yd prone, we breathe deeply in between each round fired. The key is getting a good NPA (natural point of aim) where you close your eyes and take a deep breath, exhale, and open your eyes-sights are still exactly on target. Move your body until sights are right on.

 

Smallbore is where I learned another way to really tighten the group. To me is like a fine-tuning of marksmanship skills everyone else went thru.

 

Is it so terribly expensive for SAI to test fire the rifles prior to a sale to a customer????? I think not, but I am not in control of what SAI does in their business practices. Just a thought for consideration.

 

Wow I'm very surprised that SA would kick out a National Match like that. A loaded I could see - that has some good hardware but no bedding, so you might assume its just thrown together with no fitting or adjusting. I think its been discussed whether SA laps their bolts or not. I would definitely expect this on a NM, not that this matters for this situation. Its clearly the barrel not parallel to the receiver. You must have purchased this just around the time SA announced they were discontinuing the NM and SM rifles. I just checked, they announced they were discontinuing them as early as Dec 2021, so you mentioned you bought yours in Jan 2023, so they were probably just ending the era and literally sending these out the door, since the product line ended. Thats unbelievable again on a $2500 rifle. This is all the more reason to buy a real M1a you need to buy one from the M14 builders out there.