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Discussion starter · #21 · (Edited)
eagle0199. Thanks for your service and for posting this info. The Tasco 10x vs SWFA SS 10-42mm scope is sort-of an enigma. That said, I was told by a long-time Crane employee that they did in fact purchase some Tasco scopes for the Navy/SOCCOM M14 Port Security Sniper Rifles. He said they were a little skeptical about the scopes initially, but "they held up just fine."

ON EDIT: Here'e the link to the vendor's website that outlines the origins of the Tasco "SS" 10x tactical scope circa 1993, and how SWFA later acquired the marketing rights once Tasco was going out of business. Some of this info is marketing hype, but overall I suspect this history is fairly correct: http://swfa-ss.com/index.php/history

From your pictures I assume the nice wooden stock rifle was a commercial rifle?, and that the first picture with the ACOG scope and Tasco scopes were issued rifles? Anyhow, your post comports with the pics I have seen of some ad hoc/unofficial optics used on the M14s in the mid-2000s in Iraq. As you noted that shortage of DMR rifles caused many M14s to be pulled out of storage and pressed into service with an optic in an effort to meet that conflict’s operational needs.
 
eagle0199. Thanks for your service and for posting this info. The Tasco 10x vs SWFA SS 10-42mm scope is sort-of an enigma. That said, I was told by a long-time Crane employee that they did in fact purchase some Tasco scopes for the Navy/SOCCOM M14 Port Security Sniper Rifles. He said they were a little skeptical about the scopes initially, but "they held up just fine."

How would you identify the Tasco 10s that was used, if possible.
 
How would you identify the Tasco 10s that was used, if possible.
Those photos are of the actual scopes from 2004-2005. Wish I had also taken a photo of the big box of removed scopes or of the big pallet box of M14's as they were being readied for return to depot. I posed these on my personal M1A type rifles (Armscorp receivers). As far as identification, see the photo with the engraving on the bottom of the scope tube. 5 lines, centered, as follows:

10X42
WATERPROOF
SS10X42M
AM
JAPAN​
 
Discussion starter · #24 · (Edited)
I'm updating this thread with another formal military M14 DMR rifle, used by the Estonian military forces. The only book that I am aware of that mentions this variant is Lee Emerson's excellent book, M14 Rifle Development and History, Vol 1 (2016), page 158.

This book mentions an Estonian model "TP" adopted in 2000, and a more advanced "TP2" adopted in 2008. According to Emerson, several hundred TP2 rifles were made for use at the squad and platoon level. Regarding configuration, here is what is noted:

"They were fitted with Knight's Armament RAS-14 rail mounts and Schmidt and Bender, Inc. 3-12x50 mil dot reticle day scopes. As of early 2008, the M14 TP2 model utilized the USGI synthetic stock with a six o'clock M1913 Picatinny rail and strap-on cheek rest."
Well, I recently bought a book over Christmas, Modern Snipers, which includes the first picture I have seen of the Estonian M14 TP2 DMR rifle, so I am updating this thread with a photo-based example of this otherwise obscure M14 rifle:

Source, Modern Snipers, by Leigh Neville, (2018)
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....since several hundred of these rifles were reportedly made, I consider it an official military M14 DMR rifle, although obviously it is not a US military weapon. I suspect the scope used is the same model, or very similar model, of the S&B 3-12x50mm (e.g. "M8541') scope as featured in this post regarding the USMC M39 rifle. Just an fyi update based on this picture of the TP2 rifle.
 
My head is spinning...... So for the most basic of us just where does the ARMS 18 fall in? It was given a NSN 1240-01-316-0055 I had always assumed they were used on later M21's, and maybe the very earliest M25's? I think they came online in late 1980's and because they were given a NSN they would have been in the stock system for anyone who requested them..
 
Discussion starter · #27 · (Edited)
Thank you sir for the information... this is a great read..
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it. (BTW, I think it could be improved - if I only had a GG&G mount to show on scope #8...;-)

Phil asked...
"So for the most basic of us just where does the ARMS 18 fall in? It was given a NSN 1240-01-316-0055 I had always assumed they were used on later M21's, and maybe the very earliest M25's?"
The ARMS #18 originally got its NSN in 1990, but it's unclear who procured it. (Maybe Crane/SOCOM?). However, if I had to guess, it might have been used as the scope mount for daytime and esp night vision devices on Special Forces M21s/M25s. My understanding is that the 10th SFG at Ft Devens tested both the BPT and original ARMS #18 mount in the late 1980s, but selected the BPT mount over the ARMS mount. This resulted in a formal complaint submitted by ARMS owner Richard Swan. Long sordid story ensued...and while the 10th SFG didn't select the ARMS #18, maybe another entity like perhaps 1st or 5th US Army Special Forces Group may have purchased some ARMS #18 mounts? (my speculation). Conversely, its possible that Navy Crane/SOCOM could have procured the ARMS #18 mount b/c SOCOM weapons were built at Crane by 1990, and night vision weapons are often part of the ‘tool box’ for special op mission requirements - but that is my speculation as well. (I’ll ask a guy I know about this part).

Lee Emerson's book states that in 1995 U.S. Army Picatinny Arsenal adopted Richard Swan's picatinny rail system as MIL-STD-1913, but his book doesn't explicitly state who bought the ARMS #18 mount. So, it was indeed a military mount back in the 1990s/2000s, but the history of who exactly used it is not clear. Emerson notes that the "ARMS #20 throw lever mount will secure an AN/PVS-4 night vision scope to a M14 rifle fitted with a Weaver style rail scope mount." That's all I know...
 
Discussion starter · #28 · (Edited)
Updating this thread with another optic that I acquired recently. The Israeli IDF scope I showed in this thread initially was a original Japanese 'Nimrod' 6x42mm scope that I say on eBay. They were presumably used from the mid-1970s until the mid-1990s. The replacement IDF M14 sniper scope introduced in 1994 was the Austrian made Kahles/Swarovski 'Futonic' 6x42mm scope, which I recently acquired.

The later 'Futonic' scope is easy to distinguish from the earlier 'Nimrod' scope due to the larger objective bell - which is actually a large stiff rubber sun shade that slides back and forth on the scope tube (via ~ 2 inches of lateral movement). So they both have 42mm objectives, but the later Futonic scope looks like it has a larger objective bell. (It is based on the ZF69 scope that was initially used on the SSG-69 sniper rifles adopted by the Austrian military). Anyhow, I acquired an IDF scope mount too, so I decided to mount it to a Supermatch SAI rifle and took a few pictures. My scope has likely been refurbished as it has been repainted black at some point.

Right side:
Image


Left side with IDF mount (on an SAI Supermatch M1A):
Image


Elevation knob is marked "M14" and has a built-in BDC from 100 to 800 meters. Based on what I have read, I think the trajectory is based on M852 ammunition. (Note clockwise orientation for up elevation, as seen on European scopes and on the old Leupold M3A tactical scope with BDC turret).
Image


ZF95 scope reticle. The vertical distance b/t the lower hash marks is based on a 1 meter vertical distance, to assist with range estimations:
Image


Here's the excerpt from Lee Emerson's excellent book on the M14 Rifle History and Development, Vol 1, 2016 edition, page 146:
Image


Obviously this optic was not issued on US military M14s, but it was a true M14-specific sniper optic for a foreign military partner, so I thought I would update this thread with some random pics of this interesting IDF optic. FWIW, I still hope I can find an IDF M14 sniper stock to go with this scope...as I'd like to build a replica of an IDF M14 sniper rifle to round out my small collection.

So, if someone has a spare IDF M14 stock with the cheek riser, they could sell, as seen in this picture, please let me know:

Image
 
Discussion starter · #30 · (Edited)
Updating this thread with some new information re IDF M14 sniper scopes and to correct the following statement with the latest understanding re chronology of the 3 scopes used on the IDF M14s:

The Israeli IDF scope I showed in this thread initially was a original Japanese 'Nimrod' 6x42mm scope that I say on eBay. They were presumably used from the mid-1970s until the mid-1990s. The replacement IDF M14 sniper scope introduced in 1994 was the Austrian made Kahles/Swarovski 'Futonic' 6x42mm scope, which I recently acquired.
I have subsequently learned that the Nimrod scopes were likely introduced in the "mid-1980s," and the original scopes used from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s was the old Wild Herrbrugg 4x scopes that Israel presumably removed from their old K98 rifles.

Here's the original IDF M14 scope on top (green painted 4x Wild Herbrugg) that was reportedly used from the mid-1970 thru mid-1980s, and below it is the replacement scope, the 6x40mm Nimrod, reportedly used from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s:

Image


And here's a picture of an early IDF M14 sniper with the original/1st iteration Wild Herrbrugg 4x scope. I suspect this picture might date to the 1983 invasion of Lebannon, but I can't be sure.

Image


...as noted previously, the third and final IDF M14 daytime scope was the Kahles Futonic 6x42mm scope. Just an fyi update to this thread based on additional information gathered by Punch the Clown and others on this forum.
 
Discussion starter · #32 · (Edited)
How on earth did I miss this!? Thanks so very much for all this info!
You're welcome.

Taking this opportunity to update this thread based on a couple of pictures from a forum post in 2014 that shows a Taiwan M14 DMR type rifle. Based on these two pictures, I think the scopes used by Taiwan might have been based on the old Colt Realist M16 scopes from the early 1970s era.

Left side shows a 'swept-back' mount that I suspect is of Taiwanese manufacture, but the scope on this rifle sure looks just like the old Colt Realist 3x scopes:

Image


Right side:

Image


I haven't seen any other pictures of this system, but just an fyi to add to this thread.
 
Discussion starter · #33 · (Edited)
Over the past few months I was able to acquire two more scopes that were officially used on some military M14s in the recent past, so I'm providing a few more pics for those interested in this topic.

First is the Leupold Mk 4, 3.5-10x40mm in Flat Dark Earth (FDE) color, M2 turrets, along with an illuminated TMR reticle. (Leupold item # 67940, which has been discontinued for a few years). Here's a group of Smith Enterprise's M21A5 'Crazy Horse' rifles with the Leupold Mk 4 FDE scopes. Presumably these rifles were subsequently shipped to a US Army unit sometime in the 200Xs.

Image


Second is a 'MIL-SPEC' marked NightForce 3.5-15x50mm NXS scope with zero-stop turrets and Mil-Dot reticle. Here are some Navy Mk 14 Mod 2s with that scope being used during a training exercise (probably circa 2011-2012 due to the early slotted rail seen in this picture).

Image


Here are the two recent acquisitions.

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Here's the Leupold scope that had 2 BDC turrets available. The M21A5 "Crazy Horse" I think had the standard one marked "7.62mm 168gr." The other turret shown on the scope was specific to the Knight's Armament M110 rifle (hence the reference to a 20" barrel). It is inscribed: "7.62M118 LR 20" BARREL". Both elevation and windage turrets were 1/2" per click at 100 yards.

Image


Ideally I would like to have a "NAV-SPEC" marked scope as I understand that is what was on the Navy's Mk 14 Mod 2 rifles, but its a unicorn item. (Only saw one ad from 2012 re a NAV-SPEC scope, and I have not seen another one for sale since...) So, this MIL-SPEC example will be fine for my replica, as these are hard to find as well:

Image


(This scope has a bit of wear/patina so I suspect it might have been on a military weapon at some point. I think NightForce allowed the operators to purchase MIL-SPEC scopes, but not sure about the origins of this scope). For anyone interested, here's what differentiates a "MIL-SPEC" scope from their regular commercial scopes: https://nightforceoptics.com/pdf/MilSpecFlyerPDF.pdf

Anyhow, that's my latest contribution to this thread re a couple more optics used on military M14s.
 
I love it when you update these threads!! It means more info coming in.. Thanks and congrats RG, nice pickups for sure.

BTW, Colt "Realist" scopes were marked "Colt" and under that was "Made in USA" and were an early to mid 60s item, then they were made in Japan and China late 60s on up.
Lets see if this works:http://www.retroblackrifle.com/
Won't take you to the scope section, but click on accessories, then scopes.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
Are the 2 different Leupold elevation turrets both marked in meters, or is one in yards?
Now that you mentioned it, they are different units of measurement.
168gr turret is marked in yards (out to 1000)
M118LR turret is marked in meters (out to 1000) (Traditionally speaking, the US Army has used meters as the unit of measurement for quite a while)
 
Now that you mentioned it, they are different units of measurement.
168gr turret is marked in yards (out to 1000)
M118LR turret is marked in meters (out to 1000) (Traditionally speaking, the US Army has used meters as the unit of measurement for quite a while)
Thanks for checking, that is what I expected. I had noticed that difference on both the FDE and black scopes. I'm not sure whether it is a difference in commercial vs. military, or whether it is a date issue.

I doubt it was date since the military L&S Ultra's were marked in meters back into the late 80's. Did both turrets come with this scope? Could you share the date suffix on the scope?

You have probably seen the Sniper Central article on the Leupold FDE scopes. It happens to show a scope that is marked in yards.

http://www.snipercentral.com/leupold-mark-4-3-5-10x40mm-lrt-m2-illuminated-tmr/

Cass
 
Discussion starter · #38 · (Edited)
“Could you share the date suffix on the scope?”
The Leupold FDE scope is a civilian scope with I think a V suffix in the serial number, which is a 2010 date. The US Army procured scopes have or had a “GOV” marking under the serial number. One was for sale on gunbroker the last time I checked. (Its a M110 scope).

My scope came with the 168gr dial. The M118 turret in FDE was ordered from Leupold, they had 2 left if I recall correctly. The turrets marked for M118 in meters was for their military contract scopes.
 
Awesome info here. I joined this site looking for info about a scope that I have. It's a Bausch & Lomb 62-1040. It appears to be all original. Plain white box, scope, paperwork, scope caps, flip caps, allen wrench and two sets of rings. One set I believe are Leupold tactical. The other set(on left in pic) I'm not sure of the make. Any assistance in identifying these would be appreciated. Thanks!
 

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