I think there may be ALOT more to this "story"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Redraider

 

Once a machine gun always a machine gun

 

These receivers were newly manufactured and not welded halves. They were never a machine gun. I joined this forum one month after mine was confiscated in October of 2003. If you use the search function on this forum, you will find an older thread regarding these seizures from that time period. Just type MKS into the search box and you can read the old thread.

 

Wow I remember the whole MKS saga from way back. I want to say it was the Culver Shooting Page where all the drama unfolded if I remember correctly? I remember the controversy of ATF confiscation, but don’t recall how things all played out with MKS in the end. I thought the receivers were rewelds?

 

Did they confiscate the entire rifle?

If so, did you ever get your parts back?

 

I had just enough time to strip it down to the receiver which was how I had purchased it. ATF Agent Tommy Ho was not too happy when I gave him a bare receiver but that is what I had purchased from MKS in Grafton, West Va. The parts all went back to Ted Brown and he assembled a new service rifle for me on a forged LRB receiver that was identical to the MKS receiver that the ATF had just seized. You can't make this up... I wonder how many other forum members had their MKS newly made forged receivers confiscated??

 

Quoted from Hawk "The second, the way that MKS decided to weld the select fire parts to the side of the receiver is what got them into hot water with the new receivers. Even though they were rendered inoperable, because they were attached to the receiver in a way that the BATF deemed could be made to go select fire in less than 8 hrs using basic hand tools got those to be confiscated also."

http://m14forum.com/reference/91271-m-k-specialties-question.html

 

Quoted from Hawk "The second, the way that MKS decided to weld the select fire parts to the side of the receiver is what got them into hot water with the new receivers. Even though they were rendered inoperable, because they were attached to the receiver in a way that the BATF deemed could be made to go select fire in less than 8 hrs using basic hand tools got those to be confiscated also."

http://m14forum.com/reference/91271-m-k-specialties-question.html

Sounds lovely!!!

 

That really is a gut punch, did you contest the thievery?

 

I in fact did contest and I watched as it went through the court process. In the end I lost and MKS filed bankruptcy. I received nothing from Mr. Kelly or the Federal Government.

 

I started to go with a MKS receiver but a Fed Ord m14 marked lower serial numbered mostly TRW parts gun literally knocked on my door. Thank God.

 

I built several rifles on MKS receivers and disassembled several when the ATF began confiscating them. Those owners who saw what was coming sent them back to me so they could turn in the stripped receivers. In one case a customer contacted me that the ATF was at his door and he told them I had possession of the rifle. The ATF contacted me and I told them I stripped the receiver and it was on it's way back to the customer. The ATF agent thanked me and said that was all that was necessary, they didn't need the parts, just the receiver. No one was reimbursed for their loss with a few exceptions when LRB Arms took over the remaining MKS inventory that was not confiscated. These receivers were not complete and the ATF only took the completed receivers. LRB replaced what they could after taking over production and insuring the receivers met ATF requirements. I've been proud to work with LRB Arms since then and I've built hundreds of rifles on their fine receivers.

 

A sad memory!
I also turned in my beautiful TRW- MKS to the ATF.
But there was more to my story.
The ATF contacted me after, wanted me as a witness for the government at Mr. Kelley’s trial.
I had no interest in doing that, or losing ??? days of work $$$, even though the government would pay to get me to whatever state the trial was in and put me in a hotel room.
So I contacted the NRA, said “ I need the contact info for an attorney that has experience dealing with the ATF”
NRA gave me a name & number, paid the guy his retainer, and it was worth it.

Atty advised me to call the ATF and say “My attorney says that anything I say under oath, even as a witness for the government, can be used against me in future actions.
I will therefore be pleading the 5th amendment “
BINGO, ATF removed me from the witness list.


dsc00250 copy

 

Great story, and some say the NRA is good for nothing!

 

It seems odd that nobody was able to successfully get a true 'new mfg, semi-only, NOT CONVERTABLE' MKS receiver returned - were there any that met that definition?

Jay

 

The problem was that the MKS forged receivers included the selector boss and connector rod. It was all welded up, but the ATF concluded that the receiver was too close to an actual government M14 and could be easily converted to FA fire. Kelly's earlier welded together demils had the exact same problem.

LRB Arms was the distributor for the MKS forged receivers. They had invested a lot of money in the MKS operation and decided to recoup by taking over production when Kelly was convicted. They had a few receivers that were not confiscated because they were not finished (not considered firearms) and that got LRB started in the receiver manufacturing business. LRB had a long hard struggle, but came to be the premier M14 manufacturer in the country. LRB forged receivers are the best being made today.

 

Does anyone have pics of one of the production forged MKS receivers?

 

Anyone who doesn't believe the 4473 is a form of registration needs to read this thread.

The ATF was able to decide something was illegal, find out who owned them, and then go seize them.

 

Yes

Anyone who doesn't believe the 4473 is a form of registration needs to read this thread.

The ATF was able to decide something was illegal, find out who owned them, and then go seize them.

Yes Sir,

They came and coerced me to let them confiscate my weapon. NEVER again.......

 

Apparently, obviously, the receivers did not meet the requirement of not being a full auto version. Would the original mfg. not normally seek and receive clearance from the ATF prior to going into production?? I would think that would be a normal course of action to take on the part of the mfg. As confusing of some of the laws are regarding firearms, those pertaining to full auto versions is quite clear. Don't even think about it!!

 

Mike Kelly was just stupid...
He welded receivers without ATF approval and used a ATF letter authorizing one person to make one receiver for his personal collection. It had nothing to do with MKS production. I have a copy of that letter...

He never got approval from the ATF to manufacture his forged receivers either.

The form 4473 is not used by the government to register guns. It is only maintained by the dealer. When the ATF runs a trace they start with the manufactures records, the distributors, and then the dealers. The information on who bought the receiver comes from the dealer's bound books, not the 4473.

 

Ted,
Appreciate the first-hand experience/knowledge on the MKS debacle. It saddens me that we had (2) separate opportunities to have top-shelf semi-auto only M14NM type rifles and we struck out miserable both times: the U.S. M14NM rifles manufactured by TRW sold as Title 1 (non-NFA) firearms at Camp Perry in the mid-60s & the MKS forged receiver with welded FA parts. Here's to hoping we get a third time at bat on this issue and finally gets it done right.

 

The more I look find on the MKS story, and especially reading what Ted has posted, I can see where the ATF was going with this. Certainly some better decisions could have been made along the way.

Still, the arbitrary rulings that ATF is allowed to make is a huge part of the problem, especially when you have a political agenda driving some of the enforcement practices. I watched as top ATF officials went from having developed a friendly and cooperative relationship with members of the industry, to many of those officials being transfered out for ones who viewed the industry they regulated as "the enemy" and barred any significant cooperation. For a few years under the last Admin, ATF no longer came to NFATCA meetings at Knob Creek and SAR, though that has begun again under the current Admin. So it is with some enforcement activities. The Olofson case is a particularly bad example of prosecutorial abuse, with an agent determined to make a name for herself and manipulation by the Tech Branch at her insistence.

The only solution is to get rid of Hughes once and for all, if not the whole of the 1934 act. That doesn't fix everything, but it cleans up a lot of BS criminal cases.

 

I agree the rules are convoluted and confusing. The ATF is too much a political animal. Fortunately LRB Arms came along and saved the day, taking over where MKS left off and greatly improved the product.

 

So how many years did Mike Kelly get for his efforts?

 

How is Honduras?

 

Hola Murphy!

I'm from Cleveland, Blohio Friend-

The "State Dept" US, deems this little city of La Ceiba, HN, as" travel only under emergency conditions". Been here over 16 years, don't lock my house (Big German Shepherd), never EVER had a violence issue......(knock on wood). Bottom line, look at my Tripadvisor reviews for my Bed-n-Breakfast, Bar and Grille here until COVID-19! This country BLOWS Hawaii off the map. Look up Cuero y Salado, Cayos Cochinos and Rio Cangrejal.......nuff said. We have a USMil base here, Soto Cano, the "Fake News" can be VERY persuasive my friend. I'll give you my phone number after you peruse what I've sent.

Peace,

An Old Pariot

 

I'm comparatively new to the forum, and M14 platform, and this is the first time I've heard of this fiasco. What a shame.

Here in NYerstan, the any other's have been illegal. With the UnSafe Act, AR pistols were banned, and your basic modern AR has to be completely neutered.
No matter the 4473 form, and or the log book, either way, according to the local FFLs, they come in for the audit and make copies.
One FFL had a white paper on "any other" ARs, to say they were legal, and did a sales job on hundreds over 2 years. ATF finally caught up with him.
A buddy of mine had shown me the white paper and the other AR being legal. I told him, don't buy, stay away, it's trouble for NYerstan.
He said, too late.. I said good luck.
6 months later, he received legal paperwork in the mail from the local PD to surrender the weapon.
He asked me what to do, told him, just surrender it.
He made the appointment, went down to our PP1 HQ, interviewed, they took it, and told him he will get it back once the trial is done. And it'll be returned to an FFL that can make it legal (for NYerstan). I have to follow up with him to what happened.

 

I too was a victim of the MKS debacle. I had the opportunity to look at Kelly’s samples that he had at camp Perry on vendors row. They were nice items. I pre ordered one with some NM upgrades. I took possession of it and then one day I got a phone call from a field agent asking about the weapon. The agent explained that there was a problem with it having been made as a machine gun and that there was now a criminal case regarding how Kelly made and sold whole weapons and stripped receivers. I was told that he would be coming for the item. I asked him that since the receiver was the only item Kelly made and everything else was commercially available was there any way to salvage anything. i was told that what ever was attached to the receiver when he got there went with him. I was well aware that he had over an hours drive from that field office to my place. As soon as we ended our phone conversation I began the process of taking it apart. Everything went well until I was left with a barreled action and no action wrench or jig. I learned from a smith that was very good at assembling parts kits like a FAL that you can quickly remove a receiver stub from a good barrel by using a cut off wheel, cold chisel, anvil or concrete floor. The agent showed up roughly an hour and half later and I abandoned my receiver with a s/n under 200 that only had the stripper clip guide still in place. He was professional during our brief encounter. I followed the case as it made it through the courts and in the end I too got no compensation for my loss. My salvaged parts were rebuilt into one of my most enjoyable rifles.

 

Someone asked about pictures in an earlier post. This is what I can contribute

to that request.

 

This makes for interesting reading. https://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinions/Unpublished/054775.U.pdf

It appears that way back MKS was indeed welding old decommissioned M14 receiver halves and the ATF issued him a letter telling him to cease and desist, or else.

Apparently, he ignored the warning and kept on with his activities. That was and idiotic thing to do.

Next, the hammer came down hard, on everything he was doing, on everything he possessed.

What is with people who just ignore such warnings from such agencies as the ATF? I'll never understand it.

 

I don't know the gent involved..
From people I've encountered, these type think they know better and are the smartest in the room. Seems with that letter he apprently had for a one off, he thought he was smart enough to extend it too everything else, and it would stand and he would put them in their place.. like the folks that reason they don't have to pay taxes. 7ys later, they are new bracelets.

 

Of the several MKS receivers I worked on, many were poorly done and the welded demils were not good at all. The newer forged receivers were somewhat better, but they still included features deemed bad by the ATF. I had to take apart several so the receivers could be turned in to the Feds.

 

I had a conversation with Rick Vasquez who was the ATF Tech Branch witness in the case. He is the one who quickly converted an MKS receiver to function full auto. No particular revelations, after reading his testimony on the process. I am left with the impression that these receivers could easily have been manufactured without creating this mess. The issue over welding original receivers should not have been a problem if they were made to the standards established in the Vollmer v Magaw federal court precedent, but sadly they were not, so I understand. Certainly, the new made ones should never have been so readily convertible, but the evidence suggests they were. While this may raise some hackles among some, there is no requirement to get an "approval" from ATF on manufacturing these. An argument might be made for the welded original de mil receivers, and that might have been smart for Kelly to do that. However, the new receivers should not be subject to any ATF review or approval unless one is willfully pushing the envelope which, apparently, was the case here. I think Ted's comment about Mike Kelly in Post #24 pretty well sums it up.