[forceman]

OK,this out to be interesting at the least,question for those in the know or think they are.How were the original built XM 25 or M25 barrels marked when originally assembled either by the Army,USMC, or Navy shops.
Anyone here have a original takeoff barrel to show us the markings,I only ask this cause of the interest lately in these 2 rifles and the painstaking efforts going into trying to make a accurate clone,we all know what kind of barrel it was but any real accuracy on how they were marked?

 

[conditionone]

Who was the barrel manufacturer?

 

[forceman]

Douglas,machined by Barnett

 

[XM25Ren]

I let this thread go for a while hoping someone would be able to give a definitive answer. There are apparently no XM25 take off barrels as most are still in service, and they are very likely to have had their barrels switched out and discarded.

Our really best hope of knowing can only come from one who built them or having a take off barrel in hand, barring that.....?

The barrel I have was never on an XM25 but was made for that sole purpose, but of course it could have been stamped after assembly into an XM25 rifle.

Good luck with your quest, we all would like to know.

XM25RenGI2

 

[forceman]

With all the interest in the XM25 im reintroducing this post in the hopes that someone can shed light on this question,someone has had to of seen them,someone had to of marked them,but the question is what did tbey actually stamp on them.

 

[Random Guy]

With all the interest in the XM25 i'm reintroducing this post in the hopes that someone can shed light on this question,someone has had to of seen them,someone had to of marked them,but the question is what did they actually stamp on them

(see pic in post 73)
http://m14forum.com/m14/121347-toki-s-xm25-project-5.html
I presume Toki's barrel is a US Army barrel that was from an XM25 kit.
"4 GR 1 10 7.62 MM 4 88" = 4 groove, 1:10 twist, 7.62 NATO caliber, made April, 1988. This seems typical of Barnett prepped military barrels of that era.

My Navy M14 team barrel is a heavy Douglass/Barnett and is similarly marked:
"1 10 7 62 MM 4 93 4 SPL USN" = 1:10 twist, 7.62 NATO caliber, made April, 1993, 4 groove, SPL = unknown (match/heavy barrel perhaps?) and USN is obviously US Navy.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/... 2017/M14_USN_barrel_markings_zpseikniioj.jpg

So here's what I would say about markings on military M14 Douglass/Barnett barrels presumably used on XM25 and M25 rifles:

4 groove marked
1:10 twist marked
7 62 MM marked
month + 2 digit year marked
"USN" mark on Navy barrels (no equivalent marking on US Army barrels)
"SPL" not sure about this on the heavy profile barrel, could refer to chambering or heavy barrel profile.

According to Different's research/book, the XM25 designation occurred in 1988, and the M25 designation occurred three years later in 1991. (I don't know what month). My understanding is that medium weights were used on the XM25 and that heavy barrels were used on the M25s. I think the M14 team rifles also made the switch from medium to heavy barrels around the 1990/91 period or there abouts, but I need to review the source of that recollection)

Hope that info helps.

 

[PFC THOMAS]

Barrels&the allusive 14

After reading this Post I thought I would add my 2 cents. Having 2 friends who used the M14 Platform in the Sniping Business. One is mentioned in Senich book "The Long-Range War" and Hathcock's book. I believe Boo(aka Booboo Barker/Sgt Donald Barker) used a NM 14 that he KNEW his zero's from 100-1000 yds. He and CWO Michael Pietroforte shot together on the USMC Rifle Team both hard holders as they would say. Boo told me of time he was brought into do some Counter Sniper work and it was NM M14 that he used. It was late 60's or early 70's but pre med wt barrels. Also had a friend who was SF 84-94 who Trained and carried 14 platform(XM21&M25) along with the M24. He said there was a variant that he came a cross with most sporting standard wt barrels. The rifles were built and maintained by Armour's in the unit. The medium wt barrel that was seen was the SACO and scopes ran from ARTII,B&L10x and Leupold 10,3x9,3.5x10. He has a great fondness for the 14 platform and sold me his Service Rifle Art build some yrs ago. A month ago I install a General Dynamics barrel for a guy doing a M25 type retro. It was a medium wt made in 6-83 and had electrol pencil markings 8-86 on lower barrel shank. I thought it either came off a M25 or Match Rifle to be dated. Who installed the barrel on the 14 receiver is beyond me. But I believe a military Armour for sure and the barrel contour is exactly like the SACO med wt LRB list. The 14 Platform is rather allusive and a cruel mistress most of the time. All I can say is "spite the hook out and dodge the gaff"

Pfc out

 

[Majikani]

Thank you for your post!
Yes, SAK (Saco Lowell) became General Dynamics and that is the barrel used on many 1980's M21 variants. The barrel specified for the XM25 as designed by 10th Special Forces / Ft. Devens and BPT was the medium weight Barnett 1:10. Later on, in the mid 1990's, other barrels were used. That said, Mitch Mateiko used a General Dynamics / SAK barrel on his own rifle due to a personal relationship with folks there...

 

[PFC THOMAS]

The 3 B's

One of my mentor's told me accuracy is obtained by the 3 B's.
1. Barrel
2. Bedding
3. Bullet
With that being said. I wondering what the ratio of USGI contract replacement barrels(SACO,Krieger or any other with a Drawing number) were used on the M25's vs Commercial that were sourced. Then the question of those who were awarded contracts for building M25 their source or choice of barrel to meet their Contract Requirements. Brookfield were they the first to be awarded to build outside the military? The allusive M14.
Pfc out
Happy Easter

 

[Majikani]

I agree with those three "B's"!
The XM25 (precurser to the M25) was developed as a collaboration between Thomas Kapp and Bill Amelung of the 10th Special Forces Group at Fort Devens and Mitch Mateiko of Brookfield Precision Tools (BPT) in 1986. The XM25 could be described as a product improved M21 but it had a very specific build requirement to meet specific needs. At least the first 150-250 rifles were built by BPT to the best of my knowledge. Later, in the 1990's, the rifle was designated M25 and versions were built by various parties to looser specifications however those first XM25 rifles were built by BPT and the 10th to strict specifications. AFAIK...

 

[PFC THOMAS]

Majikani,
Was BPT around before the XM25/M25 Project was being developed by the 10th? Where did they pull all the M14's for this endeavor and was it solely for the SF community? As the pot gets stirred more questions come to mind. Thanks for more background.

 

[Random Guy]

Was BPT around before the XM25/M25 Project was being developed by the 10th? Where did they pull all the M14's for this endeavor and was it solely for the SF community? As the pot gets stirred more questions come to mind. Thanks for more background.

Majikani has talked to the (retired) BPT owner and thus has more info than me, but for more back ground, please see this link re XM25/M25 topic: http://photos.imageevent.com/badger...icalfolder/M14 RHAD Online Edition 070603.pdf

M14 Rifle History and Development
Online Edition
Lee Emerson
June 03, 2007 Draft

XM25 and M25

The M25 rifle is an improved version of the M21. In 1986, the 10th Special Forces Group at Fort Devens, MA had its own machine shop and ammunition reloading shop to support the unit’s sniper weapon systems. While the ART II scope and side two point scope mount design were great improvements for the M21 over the original XM21 configuration, these optical systems were still prone to loss of zero when knocked around in the field. The condition of the bedding compound in the XM21 and M21 rifles deteriorated with removal of the receiver and barrel for cleaning and maintenance. The bedding compound in use at the time was also susceptible to chemical attack from various oils. Loss of the bedding material further worsened accuracy by causing the receiver to shift around in the stock.

To alleviate these problems, 10th Special Forces Group armorer Sergeant First Class (later Master Sergeant) Thomas E. Kapp, now deceased, sought to improve the M21 rifle. So, he and Master Sergeant Bill Amelung, worked with Mitchell E. Mateiko, owner of Brookfield Precision Tool (BPT), to develop the XM25 rifle between 1986 and 1988. Master Sergeant Amelung was the Non-Commissioned Officer-In-Charge of the 10th Special Forces Special Operations Target Interdiction Course. Mitch Mateiko had served in the Army National Guard and worked as a tool and die maker for the M14 project at Harrington & Richardson, Inc.

...my understanding is that a maximum of 250 XM25 rifles could have been made (as Mitch previously implied that only 250 stock liners were made by BPT), presumably the majority of US Army SF XM25s were made b/t 1988-1991, after which the Army standardized the M25 and dropped the stock liner from the specification, due to the time and effort to make and install this part. Also from the same source...

In 1991, the U. S. Army designated the XM25 as the M25. The XM25 / M25 saw combat service in Panama in 1989, the 1990-1991 Gulf War, and in Afghanistan in 2002. Units issued the M25 (M14SSR for the U. S. Navy) in the 1990s included the 5th and 10th Special Forces Groups in the U. S. Army and the U. S. Navy SEALs.

The U. S. Navy SEALs used the M14SSR until at least 2000. In May 2000, the U. S. Navy awarded a sole source contract to Knight’s Armament Company for 300 SR-25 rifles built to its specifications. The Navy version of the SR-25 was adopted as the Mk 11 Mod 0. The M25 still serves admirably as the spotter’s rifle in the U. S. Army Special Forces.

...so it was developed for the SF community (5th and 10th Army Special Forces), and reportedly Sfc Kapp and Mitch Mateiko both went to Crane Indiana in the early 1990s and taught the Navy Armorers how to build the M25 sniper rifle, which was subsequently used by Navy SEALs, etc. I wish production information was available, but I have not seen it. Hope that info helps.