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Discussion Starter #1
Maybe it is me but putting more weight on a gun slows you down.

But putting more weight on a gun farther down the barrel is the worse place to place it. The farther the mass is from you the more energy required to move or stop it.

Seems like most rail systems for rifles all mount out front of the receiver vs closer to the shooter. Socom II for example. The rails tend to be heavy and then when you add laser, grip and light on it is nose heavy.

I assume the guys here who have actually used these rigs in combat have a reason for this. So, I am curious if there is a reason for this or is it just a convenient way for people to stick stuff on a rifle.

Seems like rails mounted closer to the shooter would allow for a quicker gun with the same mass.
 

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Funny you say all that since I was trying to find a way to mount my laser next to my scope for the same reason. Haven't yet found a way to though...

I think it may have to do with design. If you use the receiver rail for optics (like most do) then you're pretty much stuck with using rails around the barrel for anything else. Even in that case I'd want it mounted as far back as possible to keep the weight to the rear... But... this then brings up hand placement issues. Far back means you may have to move your hold forward which may not be as comfortable/ergonomic for the shooter.

This is why my laser is now sitting in my toolbox awaiting a good solution.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I found a nice tri rail system that mounts on the receiver of my SKS. So I can mount my laser/light to the left of the scope.

The only thing I see as a downside is that I must switch on the light/laser before taking a shooting stance.

Just never see anyone mounting lasers/lights like that on the M14 or M16 platforms...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You can buy rails and I guess you could mount them on the stock but then there is the issue of it may not be parallel to the barrel. Not a big issue for a light. If too far out it may be a reason for not mounting lasers that way.

I have seen mounts that clamp to the scope
I have seen angle mounts too.

I just have never seen them used on a M14/M16 platform.

My Socom came with the scout scope mount but I removed it as if I did any prolonged shoots that thing got so hot you could not touch it. Though I liked the way the scope out there worked.

Then there is the effect it may have on barrel harmonics too.
 

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There is guy named "Watchmaker" in the BX that sells rechargeable Surfire weapon lights. He has several mounts available. One is a a band that clamps around a scope tube and has a pickatiny rail to attach your laser to. I use one on my shotgun barrel to attach a light and have a pressure switch on the stock. The same switch may also be adaptable to your laser too.
 

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Maybe people don't use them because they interfere with the receiver mounted optics? That's why I'm not using one. I can't use the ring mount/clamp setup either since I have a 35mm scope tube.

Also I guess most use pressure switches operated by the off hand... would need the light and switch near the hand in that case.
 

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I can't use the ring mount/clamp setup either since I have a 35mm scope tube.
NoExpert,

Is your tube 35mm or 34mm?

The TNVC SAR4 might allow you to mount a weaver type mounted accessory to your USO's tube body.

I had one of TNVC's older SAR's for mounting a T1 on my Leupold, but I replaced it with one of the Badger Ordnance Picatinny Ring Tops that TheTinMan referred to.





In any case, the most beneficial position for mounting a laser aiming device is directly above or below the bore line (12 O'clock or 6 O'clock position). This way, the beam tracks in-line vertically within the plane of the projectile's trajectory, and it will converge with the point of aim/point of impact down range.

However, if a laser is mounted horizontally, to the side of the bore (3 O'clock or 9 O'clock position), then, after the point of aim/point of impact convergence, the beam will be off target to either the right or the left.
 

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Maybe it is me but putting more weight on a gun slows you down.
You are correct about the weight, but it is a trade off; a little extra weight to carry in exchange for tools that enhance one's ability to win a gun fight (i.e. white light, optic, grenade launcher, laser designator, etc).

...I am curious if there is a reason for this or is it just a convenient way for people to stick stuff on a rifle.
Both are happening at the same time.

Individuals who are trained and use firearms professionally utilize railed systems to mount the above mentioned tools to gain a tactical advantage. Those who are untrained, or hobbyists, utilize railed systems to mount a lot of junk that they think looks cool, but, in reality, serves no useful purpose to them.

Seems like most rail systems for rifles all mount out front of the receiver vs closer to the shooter. Socom II for example. The rails tend to be heavy and then when you add laser, grip and light on it is nose heavy.
The forward placement of most railed systems is due to the fact the rails are an upgraded modernization of the original design of the firearm. The design of the weapons physically restrict the available mounting area to the fore end of the weapons. Basically, there is no other practical place to add accessory rails other than the fore end.

Incidentally, the fore end area is also the most convenient area for the the shooter to access and activate the mounted accessories and tools with the support hand.

This is not limited to the M14 platform.

Modern gun fighting tactics have drastically changed since these weapons were designed, and neither Garrand nor Stoner could have envisioned that, nearly half a century later, their respective weapons systems would need the modular ability to mount various mission essential tools.
 

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NoExpert,

Is your tube 35mm or 34mm?
35mm. I've looked for that sort of setup but either I couldn't find one I like or they didn't make the size I need. Plus I'm not sure how much more height I want to add to the rifle.

I agree, a laser's best place is inline over (preferred) or under the bore, no arguing that and was my first choice. However, as i played with it more I realized, it's a laser sight and for more up close encounters. Even at 3 inches off center (target right on top of you) you can hit center of mass. My laser has a visible range of about 100 yards. If I sight it in at that with a 3 inch offset then I'm 1.5" off center at 50 yards and about 2.25" off center at 25 yards. That's still accurate enough to get the job done I think... And probably do better than the guy next to me at the range yesterday, good grief, he couldn't consistently hit a 2 foot by 4 foot piece of cardboard at 50 yards using an ACOG on his AR. Unless maybe he was supposed to hit the ground in front of the target cardboard? Old West "I said dance boy" style?
 

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NoExpert,

Is your tube 35mm or 34mm?

The TNVC SAR4 might allow you to mount a weaver type mounted accessory to your USO's tube body.

I had one of TNVC's older SAR's for mounting a T1 on my Leupold, but I replaced it with one of the Badger Ordnance Picatinny Ring Tops that TheTinMan referred to.





In any case, the most beneficial position for mounting a laser aiming device is directly above or below the bore line (12 O'clock or 6 O'clock position). This way, the beam tracks in-line vertically within the plane of the projectile's trajectory, and it will converge with the point of aim/point of impact down range.

However, if a laser is mounted horizontally, to the side of the bore (3 O'clock or 9 O'clock position), then, after the point of aim/point of impact convergence, the beam will be off target to either the right or the left.
If it is 2" to the right at 0m, zeroed at 200m, then it shouldn't be more than 2" off at 400m. Even if it was off by 6", the beam is pretty large and the range isn't very far. We would zero them by aiming at a spot 200m away with the rifle's sight and having someone else move the laser to impact at the same spot. There is probably more of a difference in bullet drop than side to side POI.
Dustin
 

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I found a nice tri rail system that mounts on the receiver of my SKS. So I can mount my laser/light to the left of the scope.

The only thing I see as a downside is that I must switch on the light/laser before taking a shooting stance.

Just never see anyone mounting lasers/lights like that on the M14 or M16 platforms...
I don't see any reason to mount a light that far back. People generally try to mount them as far forward as possible. This is to be able to activate it with their support hand and keep the light from shining and their weapon, body, and sights when it is on. There is nothing wrong with mounting a laser far back as long as your arm or hand isn't in front of it while holding the weapon.
Dustin
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Since I only currently mount and shoot with a laser on my pistols. I understand how much faster you can acquire a target and accurately shoot quickly. But with a pistol the laser is just in front of the trigger.

It seems like so many go to great lengths to lighten up guns to allow them to handle faster, then mount heavy rail systems way out on the front that slows this down.

I would assume you would only mount a rail system that is as small and as light as possible and then only mount those accessories needed for a specific mission/use.

I know a lot of shooters (Mostly AR Guys) who have the full rail systems on their rifles and always have lasers, magnifiers, lights, vertical grips, bipods mounted but then bench shoot them only out to 100 yards rested.

Seems more like bling than functional..

My friend had a shoot up at his ranch and he invited a friend of his to come up and shoot. He shows up with a really nice AR with full rail system, laser/ light/bipod/front vertical grip made by one of the more famous AR shops. A lot of money. Oh but he did not have any mags with him or any ammo. Seems he "Forgot that" ...

I guess the switching is one reason I can understand. But since I usually have the light/laser on or off the entire time I shoot that does not seem as important to me. I know Professionals do have times they will need to quickly switch them on/off as required. Also the light so it does not cause glare on a optic would also be an issue.
 

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If it is 2" to the right at 0m, zeroed at 200m, then it shouldn't be more than 2" off at 400m. Even if it was off by 6", the beam is pretty large and the range isn't very far.
Right on. We are saying the same thing.

I was only offering that, when mounted on the horizontal plane of the bore, the laser pointer will deviate both vertically and horizontally from the projectile's trajectory.

That is twice as much deviation to consider as when the laser device is mounted in the same vertical plane...something to consider when choosing to mount a laser aiming device.
 

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...People generally try to mount them as far forward as possible. This is to be able to activate it with their support hand and keep the light from shining and their weapon, body, and sights when it is on. ...
More importantly to me, when a light is mounted farther away from the muzzle, more of the light's output beam is obstructed by the weapon body. This casts a shadow that can obscure up to 180 degrees of the light on target.

Not a good thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
More importantly to me, when a light is mounted farther away from the muzzle, more of the light's output beam is obstructed by the weapon body. This casts a shadow that can obscure up to 180 degrees of the light on target.

Not a good thing.
That also makes a lot of sense.

So it is a trade off. You eliminate more issues than you gain by that placement of accessories.
 

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Yeah, it's all about having the accessories where you can quickly use them when needed, while maintaining a stable firing position.

Some of the more modern techniques for close quarter shooting (which is generally where you need accessories like lights and lasers) call for gripping the forearm quite far forward. This lets you snap the muzzle on target quicker. Lots of guys with ARs mount their flashlight up by the front sight so it can be used with such a hold.

A lot of guys in the AR world are moving more toward modular tubes where short sections of rail can be attached only where needed, rather than the full quad rail cheese graters. I will probably go with the Midwest Industries SS handguard on the AR I'm putting together.

As for my M1A, the role it is intended for doesn't really call for any accessories other than a GI web sling and some iron sights (maybe my optic when I feel like it), so it doesn't have any rails. I may mount a little section of rail on the side of the fiberglass forearm though... just in case I ever need to put the surefire on there and take care of business.
 
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