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Discussion Starter #1
I am wondering what are the key things to look for in determining if some one has a true military version M-14 sniper rifle. I have been reading everything I can find on here and other sources about the different variants of the XM-21,M-21 rifles. I was wondering what everyone on here could tell me to look for. Heel stampings, proof marks, barrels, scopes, manufactures, weather they were full auto or semi, with the stud locks. Did Spring Field Armory Inc. make any? Where they all made from NM unlined barrels? Where they all manufactured by Win,HTR,TRW? Which ones are more collectable and what parts make them that way?
 

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No civilian owns a legit M21, M25 etc.

You can buy one that's been done up like one, several companies sell 'clones' if that is what you are asking about. There's no ironclad specification but generally speaking it's an M1A with a match barrel in either a mcmillan or SAGE stock.
 

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im pretty sure some civiians own them . all you need is a parts kit, an m14 , a surplus scope and a nfa stamp.


collector wise we gotta be talking 50-100,000.00 $ USD



better to use the parts kit with a commercial reciever like a normal person.

so if someone is telling you they have a m14 sniper rifle that served as a sniper rifle. get with them and contact gus fischer. if hes still poking around these parts (i have been awol for a few months) the. he can likely tell you what your dealing with.
 

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Not all M14 sniper rifles were US issue.

The Israelis used a slightly modified M14 as a sniper rifle, with their own scope mounts and either Kahles or Nimrod scopes. They also had one of the first BULL PUP M14 rifle stocks.

As a Canadian gunsmith and fire arms dealer, I had about three dozen Israeli surplus M14 rifles. All of the ones I had were either arsenal rebuilt or arsenal refinished, and were rumored to be intended for use as sniper rifles. I do not know if this rumor was true, but I do know that the very best 10 shot 100 yd group I have ever personally seen, came from one of these Israeli surplus M14 rifles.

The M14 was probably used as a base for a sniper rifle by other countries as well ...
after all, it was one of the best choices back in the day.
[;)
LAZ 1
 

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I think Toki, a member here, bought a M-25 kit "real deal", and built himself a keeper rifle that haunts my dreams. Toki, do you still have that m25 gem? How does she shoot? Can I have it please? Just kidding of coarse. That is a super nice set-up you have sir.
 

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There were M21/M25? kits floating around awhile ago on Ebay with the majority of the parts including the scope mount which was a brookfield type. That isn't exactly the same as having a 'real one' though.

My point was that outside of a very very small number of collectors and prop houses nobody really has a 'real one' and that the ones you see on the market are usually an individual company's or gunsmith's take on what is and isn't an "M14 Sniper Rifle".
 

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Gus, being a Marine didn't have much exposure to the M21 weapon system so he won't likely have much info on it. Of course, he may prove me wrong. He does that.

The M21 Sniper Rifle was simply a National Match M14 equipped with the auto ranging telescope AR-Tel. Most of these rifles were prepared by the Army MTU, rebuilt from Springfield Armory NM rifles. Springfield was not involved in the production of M21 rifles.

Many of these rifles were rebuilt again and equipped with medium weight barrels and the newer ART II auto ranging telescope around 1982.

It's not likely that any of these rifles are in civilian hands although civilians who own NFA M14 rifles may have had them modified to NM specs and equipped with surplus or new scopes so there could be M21 type rifles in civilian hands. It's only money...
 

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Interesting that someone forwarded this link to me a few days ago...

http://www.tactical-life.com/guns-and-weapons/springfield-armory-m21-tactical-7-62mm/2/

Perfectly happy with my SAI Super, in a Sage ALCS/CV-HB, with a DCSB mount and some other goodies.

Still searching for that "perfect optic". If NF doesn't start shipping the BEAST in a couple of weeks, it'll be wearing an S&B.

Would seem to me that "sniper" and "select-fire" are kinda oxymoronic though.

Rick
 

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If I buy an electric toothbrush and go around telling people that it's a genuine US military F16 fighter jet, what do I have? An electric toothbrush and a delusion. GI1

Now don't get me wrong, lots of folks are very interested in the history and the function of the US military sniper/DMR versions of the M14 rifle. I am one of them. Some of those folks will take an SAI commercial M1A rifle, bolt on a Tasco scope, and swear that it's a US Military M21 Sniper Rifle. Well, no, it's not. Others will take the time (and money) to collect all of the correct original US military parts and have a rifle built using the correct materials and techniques and say that they have a very very close civilian copy of a US military M14 sniper rifle. That's more where I stand.

If it's not a real original US military rifle, then it's not and it never will be. We as civilian owners will just have to be happy that even though the receiver says "LRB" or "Fulton Armory" or whatever, the closest we will ever come to an M21, M25, USMC DMR, etc. is to build a respectful, accurate copy. They will never be the real deal, we can't own one and none are for sale. DI5
 
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The SAI M21 is an interesting rifle in itself, but has no relationship to the military M21, just as the LRB M25 has no relationship to the military M25 version of the M14. They stand on their own ground and offer unique features not found in their original namesakes.

I think they are all neat!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Ok so there are class three m-14's out there, there is one up for auction on Rock Island. And not all sniper rifles were full auto. So I guess what I'm asking is how do you tell the difference from one someone put together with a kit and is claiming its a military issue.
 

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to start with, the receiver will be the same as any other USGI m-14, but the rifle will just have a selector lock installed instead of a switch. I have never heard of the full auto lug being cut off of the receivers for semi only fire, they just used a lock from what I recall reading. I am positive others here can confirm and add more detail on this.
I think the biggest noticeable thing to start with will be the price. If it is not a similar price as a nice car, then 99% sure it is not a USGI receiver and therefore NOT a M-21 or M-25, or an M-14.
 

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So I guess what I'm asking is how do you tell the difference from one someone put together with a kit and is claiming its a military issue.
Any rifle like you describe will have a big price tag and more importantly a paper trail. If no paperwork then he's either pulling your leg, confused himself, or has something in his possession that you probably don't want.
 

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Ok so there are class three m-14's out there, there is one up for auction on Rock Island. And not all sniper rifles were full auto. So I guess what I'm asking is how do you tell the difference from one someone put together with a kit and is claiming its a military issue.
Simple. If it's available for sale to civilians, it's NOT an original US military M14 sniper rifle. They just simply do not exist on the civilian market. Legal registration of machine guns was cut off in 1986. There are no more legal full auto weapons for sale to you registered after that date. That eliminates the M25 rifles. If there were a legit pre-1986 US Army XM21 or M21 sniper rifle legally owned in civilian hands, chances are someone on this forum would know about it.

I have seen descriptions of M1A-type semiauto rifles on Gunbroker that make me want to puke, they are so full of lies. Let me try to say this again: It doesn't matter what details or markings you look for, you can't buy a US military M14 sniper rifle because they don't exist in civilian hands. You are ripe to get ripped off if you think maybe they do.

All US military M14 rifles are full-auto machine guns (Except for one single NM rifle that was the subject of a significant court case, but that's neither here nor there...). They may have a lock installed that makes them semi-auto in use, and this includes all of the National Match rifles and most of the M21 rifles, but the lock can be removed and replaced with the full auto selector switch in a few minutes which is why all real M14 rifles are legally classified as machine guns, and why their numbers in civilian hands are very low, and why someone would know if one of the few registered M14 rifles in this country was an M21 sniper variant.

Hope this helps. Don't get burned, if someone tells you he has a US military M14 sniper rifle or M21 sniper rifle to sell you he is lying, and I can get you a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge. DI5
 

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I think Toki, a member here, bought a M-25 kit "real deal", and built himself a keeper rifle that haunts my dreams. Toki, do you still have that m25 gem? How does she shoot? Can I have it please? Just kidding of coarse. That is a super nice set-up you have sir.
I most certainly do. Confirmed Brookfield modified M25 parts kit, one of kind, sold to me by forum member CMA. Built up on an LRB receiver.
The real deal


Mine, Top rifle. Probably the closest anyone will ever get to owning a true M25.
 

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There it is, I still dream of your build thanks for the post Toki DI5DI5DI5.




I most certainly do. Confirmed Brookfield modified M25 parts kit, one of kind, sold to me by forum member CMA. Built up on an LRB receiver.
The real deal


Mine, Top rifle. Probably the closest anyone will ever get to owning a true M25.
 
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