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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I pulled off a 3" 10-shot group at 200 today with irons using a 6 o'clock hold on an NRA target. Mathematically I know this equates to a 1.5" group at 100 but what about the distance factor that the eye has on target acquisition as the distance gets greater. I usually shoot about 1" groups at 100, 6" to 8" groups at 300 and about 18" to 20" groups at 600. Obviously it's nearly impossible to finely hold the front sight at the exact spot as the distance gets farther unless using optics; at least using a post/aperture-style sight.

So taking this into consideration, What kind of groups do you high power match shooters get at 200, 300 & 600? I only ask because I have never shot a match and I hardly run into anyone who shoots with irons. I am usually busy on HP match days but I really need to make it to one soon.

Thanks,
Tony.
 

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The X-ring at 200yds is 3in, the 10-ring 7in. Last month I used my super stocker with USGI barrel for our HP match with my 125 TnT load I cranked off a 100/5x and backed it up with a 96/4x in the sitting rapids, I don't know what MOA that is and all I care about is that the pointy end goes where I want it too, trying too use Jedi mind tricks on my rifle/ammo has proven fruitless.(vodoo,witchcraft or maybe a hex' are worth looking into)

I know that most shooters are looking for that isty-bitsy one hole group, and then shag off a round or two, you know that flyer that shows up, I'm looking/shooting for score with hopefully round, predictable groupings, nothing radical or offcall(flyer).

Shooting for score is all about your trends or your shooting AVG
200-20rds standing mid 80's to low 90's I've never shot better than a 96 offhand
200-20rds sitting rapid, low 80's to mid 90's
300-20rds prone rapid, mid 80's to mid 90's
600-20rds prone slow, lately I'm all over the place 170's so I guess I'm in the basement, 2 years ago(2009) my 600yd avg was in the 180 range but I have never fired better than a 190 something.(I took off 2010)

Ever here a a gent by the name of Dad Farr? all he had was a 03 Springfield with a post and aperture.

Its very hard too give a good answer for your question, good groups don't alway make good scores, the best answer I can give you is go and shoot in a Match and you will experance it for yourself.
 

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Tony,
I only shoot for group during initial load development. This is after using the chrono to get to the speeds I know work best across two different rifles I use. After then shooting for groups, I then confirm it is a good load on match day. Usually works out well.

What I have found:
  • 168-175SMK/NOS needs about ~2600-2640fps for best accuracy in my rifles. Oddly (or maybe not so), I settled on 42.2 grns of 4064 for the 175 bullets, and this is what I later read that a long time service shooter and M14 smith Derrick Martin recommended.
  • 185 Berger LRBT needs 2525-2550fps

I also use "ontarget" freeware for group assessment, which makes it quick and easy. I just snap a picture of my group with my camera and later download it to the computer and the software helps me pick out the best group. I pay most attention to mean radius or average distance from center. I shot 10 shoot groups prone with irons.

My last 10 shot group was just under 1 MOA (3") at 300 yds with prone and irons (I have pic RNGR1)
That was it.
600-1000yd load development done.
Tested and confirmed by great match scores.
It was with the berger 185. Since that time, I have used it steadily in my rifles and have no reason to switch and try anything new.

In conclusion, I would recommend researching some standard loads (IE: 168 SMK with 41.5 ect..) and not waste too much time or barrel life reinventing the wheel. There are some standard loads out there that shoot great in many different M14s. I feel the newest spoke to this wheel of standard loads is the 185 Berger at a sensible speed. Get your load refined if needed, accept a 1.25-1.5MOA 10 shot group and shoot matches. There is not much that improves your accuracy more than match shooting.

Best,

JW
 

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Tony,

In addition to what I said above, When you start shooting at 900-1000yds, that is when you need the best rifle you can afford and the best load possible.

At 200, 300 and even 600yds a 1.25-1.5 MOA rifle will yield a good shooter decent scores. When you drop back to 800yds, it actually gets a little easier. The target is the same as the 1000yd target but you are 200yds closer. It is fairly forgiving at that distance.

At 900 yds shooting gets noticeably harder, and at 1000yds sometimes you are wondering "what the heXX?" At these distances it is best that you have a rifle that is in the 1.0-1.25MOA range. .75MOA, or less, would be better, but I have not seen one of those models that shoot 10 shot groups that small.

In our quest to achieve the utmost, we often fail to accept (or think of) improving the biggest factor - the shooter.

A .5MOA rifle with a 5 MOA hold is all over the place.

A 1.5MOA rifle with a .5MOA hold shoots a damn fine score...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks gents. I'll chew on your input for a while. After having a night to sleep on it and rethink what I am really asking, I guess the question could be simplified as; for iron sight shooting, what group size should I accept that any grouping that is smaller than X inches at X distance is really just luck and what group size is considered reasonable as the best that any shooter, novice or master, should be happy with.

I guess the x-ring size would be a good start for superb performance and the 10-ring size would be considerred reasonably competitive for a shooter.

Thanks again,
Tony.
 

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The 10-ring is exceptional. Anyone you know score an 800 at an XTC match???? Great shooters routinely clean targets. I clean targets occassionally in rapids, but rarely at 200 yard slow-fire prone. I would say 3 MOA is what you could expect if you are smoking good. That is all 10s. This is from position and not off the bench.

A lot depends on your vision and ability to focus on the front sight post, your sight alignment, cheek-weld, NPoA, etc. The fundamentals. A great marksman is going to shoot at 95% or better or a Master level shooter. That's about as good as a human can do with a service rifle. Guys shooting better routinely utilize rifles with enhanced sighting systems (aperture inserts, globe front sights, etc.) AKA freakin' cheaters. XTC is an equipment match. If you want to shoot for skill then the CMP EIC and JCG matches are the best bet. That's what I shoot. I have given up on XTC except for the occassional itch to shoot my SM at 600.
 

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Tony,

On inputs you got so far, JameyDan is spot on.

Here is an unsoliciited input for highpower from my perspective. Maybe off the main topic, but I'll post it anyway. For training @ 200 shoot prone slow fire and shoot slow fire till you damn near or clean the reduced 600. Training on the reduced target teaches you a lot about shooting fundamentals without having to deal with the wind. The scoring rings are not forgiving, think about a 1.8 inch X ring. Whatever you learned from the steadiest position, prone slow fire, will trasnfer to the rapids and standing. You will burn into your brains what it takes to put a shot in the center - that means the sight picture is correct and the shot execution is flawless.

At our local club we do not make distinction whether you shoot a match or a service rifle, we compete in the same classification. Being a 14 shooter myself, I had my share of wins against the odds. Shoot the XTC as much as you can with your service rifle, you skills will improve. Don't run away from the AR shooters or match rifle shooters, the local matches are not the Nationals loaded with world class shooters, you can compete heads up against them. It takes time, money, and commitment to the game....
 

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200 yd reduced:

Offhand - 4 moa - generally low to mid 90's
Sitting Rapid - 3-1/2 moa - generally mid to high 90's
Prone Rapid - 2-1/2 moa - generally mid to high 90's
Prone - 2 moa - generally mid 180's to low 190's

XTC:

It largely depends on the wind. Provided I have a good wind call, offhand, sitting, and prone rapid aren't any different than at 200 reduced. 600 is a different matter, although I once managed a 600 yd 195 on a no wind range.
 
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