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"Death From Above"
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gent I was in the company of one of the greats today. I have to start off by saying, I still suck but getting better each time I shoot. I was in the second squad on lane 16 today. I was squaded opposite one of the nations greatest shooters today. I had no idea he was even in our league! His name is Dwight Becherer. He won at camp perry this year for the highest civilian shooter, only two points behind an AMU shooter. I dont know what the exact score was or what match he was shooting in. Nez Bamban would know. He was like a machine!!!! I was in the pits scoring his shots. I have to say it was the easiest I ever scored! Just about every shot was an X or 10. there were 14 9's he shot a 786 35 x and it was a bad day. What a pleasure it was to see something like that.
The gorund was frozen solid this morning, they forgot to turn off the sprinkler system so every blade of grass was frozen in place.
Of course, I had a great time. I tried something new in the offhand today only to find out a couple of things. Dont make any changes just before a match and use what works. I tried holding the rifle between the trigger group and the mag instead of holding the bottom of the mag. Bad idea, first string was a 64 out of 100 rather than my usual mid 80's. I switched back during the second string and got my usual 86. I also made a mistake and grabbed an untried GI mag. I usually bring three 20 round mags, this morning I grabbed a fourth. Just so happens it was the one I started off with and the dam follower was doing a nose dive. I switched that out after dealing with it for 7 rounds or so in the standing slow fire. Need to do surgery on that mag I guess. Always something new to screw with me.

Fill me in, during the rattle battle, in the first string at 600 yards what is the time limit and number of rounds. I cant see getting off more than 20 well aimed shots in 2 minutes. I remember hearing a former member saying something like 27 rounds or 25 rounds was doable. I feel if your shooting a standard weight rifle the recoil would be to much. With the SM I am just able to get 10 well placed shots off that were actually aimed.
 

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Hey Warren, glad to hear you got to shoot the last match of the year. Would have sucked to miss it, but with your schedule...... Congrads, yes never change your horse in mid stream. You tend to get wet. Always check your gear before leaving the house, or as you say Preflight the damn thing. You are lucky to have a nationally known shooter so close. Squad with him and watch him close, ask questions, bug him.......learn from him. Ride the front sight on the Rattle Battle....ask around someone will let you in on the secret. Oh yeah almost forgot our winter league just started here in NC. FRG1
 

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Sounds like you had a great time! I have an opportunity to go to a match on the 12th but it is over 200 miles away. Love to go but those long days are getting to be killers for me as I get older.

On the rattle battle, you have 60 seconds to shoot as many rounds as you can fire. I've only shot the match once but have coached several junior teams on the event. I have to say, I don't mind coaching it but, for some reason, I just really don't care much for shooting it.
 

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Nice, every match is a learning experience for me too. Quick question related to your comment about offand holding. The guys I shoot with have discouraged me from shooting offhand while holding the bottom of the magazine, I was taught to hold just in front of the mag well. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John
 

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"Death From Above"
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
200 miles is a long way to go, as it is I have to drive 100 miles round trip for mine which takes about two hours. You have to do 400 miles round trip?

As far as the way I hold the rifle, I have my best results holding the bottom of the mag. I have short arms and if I grab the rifle behind the mag I am not using bone structure to support the rifle I am using muscles to do so and I am all over the road. I tried that method and found it awkward. I used that method for the first slow offhand string and did not do so well. Maybe it was because it was new, I am not sure I will have to try it again in a practice session. A guy showed me a trick, the further you get your elbow forward on your stomach the higher you can support the rifle. For now I am sticking to the bottom of the mag. One thing you have to be careful of doing that is not to drop the mag out of the action.
 

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82nd, my closest XTC matches are just under 190 miles away and I attend most every one they have each year. As I get older, the trip gets harder (especially when I have to get up at 02:30 and not get home until around 20:00). So, going to one 20-30 miles further away has been done, but just seems like I just go over the edge of my limits.

In regards to hand placement in offhand. Several years ago, I was shooting some crappy ammo in my FAL when a case head ruptured. The gases were vented down through the mag and blew out the floor plate. Since that one time, I've always had a reactive cringe when I put my hand on the bottom of a magazine. I tried doing the M1A that way but was never comfortable that I was holding the rifle steady enough. Here is what I've found that seems to work - at least for me:

- Hold the rifle in the web of my thumb and forefinger and just in front of the magazine. My wrist is actually up against the mag but my fingers don't grip the stock.

- I keep my wrist, forearm, and elbow all in a perfect line to maximize bone support. If any of these items are out of alignment any at all, you'll have some movement.

- I get my cheek weld and eye alignment before I bring the rifle down to the target so that my head is staying as upright as possible.

- When I bring the rifle onto the target, I relax my shoulder so that my upper support arm rests flatly against my rib cage.

Don't know about others but I like to grip firmly with my firing hand and pull the rifle back into my shoulder. I also hold a little rearward tension on the front of the mag with my wrist. This helps further steady the rifle.

When I do all this and don't yank the trigger, I get good shots without undue muscle tension.
 

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"Death From Above"
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hey Warren, glad to hear you got to shoot the last match of the year. Would have sucked to miss it, but with your schedule...... Congrads, yes never change your horse in mid stream. You tend to get wet. Always check your gear before leaving the house, or as you say Preflight the damn thing. You are lucky to have a nationally known shooter so close. Squad with him and watch him close, ask questions, bug him.......learn from him. Ride the front sight on the Rattle Battle....ask around someone will let you in on the secret. Oh yeah almost forgot our winter league just started here in NC. FRG1
Always a great pleasure hearing from you Bob! I can't believe I waited so long to start competing. I am glad I did. This winter I hope to learn a new skill and thats reloading. you are so right when it comes to not changing anything mid stream. On a side note, have you heard any news about the two troops that burned in last month? Military times had an article but I have not seen any follow ups. 1000 feet is a long way down. Do you know anymore details?
Your friend Warren
 

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"Death From Above"
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
82nd, my closest XTC matches are just under 190 miles away and I attend most every one they have each year. As I get older, the trip gets harder (especially when I have to get up at 02:30 and not get home until around 20:00). So, going to one 20-30 miles further away has been done, but just seems like I just go over the edge of my limits.

In regards to hand placement in offhand. Several years ago, I was shooting some crappy ammo in my FAL when a case head ruptured. The gases were vented down through the mag and blew out the floor plate. Since that one time, I've always had a reactive cringe when I put my hand on the bottom of a magazine. I tried doing the M1A that way but was never comfortable that I was holding the rifle steady enough. Here is what I've found that seems to work - at least for me:

- Hold the rifle in the web of my thumb and forefinger and just in front of the magazine. My wrist is actually up against the mag but my fingers don't grip the stock.

- I keep my wrist, forearm, and elbow all in a perfect line to maximize bone support. If any of these items are out of alignment any at all, you'll have some movement.

- I get my cheek weld and eye alignment before I bring the rifle down to the target so that my head is staying as upright as possible.

- When I bring the rifle onto the target, I relax my shoulder so that my upper support arm rests flatly against my rib cage.

Don't know about others but I like to grip firmly with my firing hand and pull the rifle back into my shoulder. I also hold a little rearward tension on the front of the mag with my wrist. This helps further steady the rifle.

When I do all this and don't yank the trigger, I get good shots without undue muscle tension.
I have to give this a try again, it seems to have potential. What you described is basically what I did but doing it for the first time on the first string was a mistake. It reminded me when I changed my golf grip from overlapping my pinky finger to not overlapping it. Felt very very strange but I practiced at the range that day for approx 500 balls. At the end it was second nature. I hope to practice Thursday and go to another leagues match on Saturday. I'll give it a try
 

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On the Rattle Battle time, we have 50 seconds at each of the four stages in Camp Perry competition.

Also, there are 384 rounds shared between six shooters for this event. If you split the ammo evenly, its 64 rounds per person.

So, the national event is run a bit differently than club events. But, getting proficient in prone or sitting rapid fire requires much the same techniques. If you master an M14 style rifle, the AR-15 is easy.
 

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Excellent Posting!!!!

Great Comments 82nd ABN, what a great after match AAR.... It brings back lots of memories!!!

Fill me in, during the rattle battle, in the first string at 600 yards what is the time limit and number of rounds.
As many rounds as you can shoot accurately...As I remember back in my day, in Infantry Trophy 50 seconds at 600 yards... Almost all I.T. matches are won or lost at 600 yards.... I was never a "Swing Shooter" in I.T. matches and usually I got off 18 rounds from one magazine in 50 seconds with my M14NM. Sometimes I was able to do a magazine change and get off one or two shots from the second magazine. If the Coach called the wind right I always "Squared" my target...
 

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"Death From Above"
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
On the Rattle Battle time, we have 50 seconds at each of the four stages in Camp Perry competition.

Also, there are 384 rounds shared between six shooters for this event. If you split the ammo evenly, its 64 rounds per person.

So, the national event is run a bit differently than club events. But, getting proficient in prone or sitting rapid fire requires much the same techniques. If you master an M14 style rifle, the AR-15 is easy.
I am going to Camp Perry next year if I have to walk from long island. I hope to get some experience at Camp Smith next year at regular type matches at different yardages. Its only 70 miles up the river and from what I hear the west point boys are not hogging the range anymore. Maybe we can get a couple of matches in up there.

Great Comments 82nd ABN, what a great after match AAR.... It brings back lots of memories!!!



As many rounds as you can shoot accurately...As I remember back in my day, in Infantry Trophy 50 seconds at 600 yards... Almost all I.T. matches are won or lost at 600 yards.... I was never a "Swing Shooter" in I.T. matches and usually I got off 18 rounds from one magazine in 50 seconds with my M14NM. Sometimes I was able to do a magazine change and get off one or two shots from the second magazine. If the Coach called the wind right I always "Squared" my target...
I was wondering the time frame because I was thinking about the pace of getting 10 rounds off in a string with a mag change at 60 seconds. I will venture to say getting 18-20 rounds off in 50 seconds at the 600 yard line you better have your crap squared away. I am getting much better at the prone rapids at the reduced 600 yard target. A few years ago I switched up to the 6 oclock hold. I am aiming with the black dot on the top of the front sight. However it works great on the 200 yard target but when I shoot the 600 reduced all my rounds are hitting low just below the center. I am doing it consistently so I am thinking about making an elevation adjustment rather than a sight picture adjustment. What do you think???? Come up one more click?
 

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Warren
glad you got to shoot. I had to work the NYC Marathon detail. I'll probably shoot the final league match at Roslyn this Saturday.
Like you I am looking forward to Perry next summer. You'll love it.
 

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Elevation Changes at 600 yards

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When I shoot the 600 reduced all my rounds are hitting low just below the center. I am doing it consistently so I am thinking about making an elevation adjustment rather than a sight picture adjustment. What do you think???? Come up one more click?
ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Make a sight adjustment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even when shooting the 600 yard reduced target, always keep detailed and ACCURATE score/data book entries. And really look at the data shortly after finishing a match or even a practice session. Do this and look for trends of shot placement. Be totally intellectually honest with yourself also when analyzing your just fired string(s). For example, many times at 600 SF with the 14 I would need to come up a ½ minute at around shot 12 or 13, because being a small stature person the recoil would continue to settle me down and into the position with each shot. (Despite using an unconventional wrap-around prone position to lessen the effects of recoil). Just remember a 10 or a 9 is just as good at the 12 o’clock position as it is at the 6 o’clock position. Don’t despair 82nd ABN, the road to getting better is fraught at times with one step forward, two steps back. But the journey is well worth it. Highpower shooting is damned tough work, mentally and physically and don’t let anyone ever say it is not.
 
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