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Discussion Starter #1
It will be interesting to see what information comes out of this. "PTSD" gets thrown around more than monkey feces.

Sad to see it happen.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25915063/aurora-officer-involved-shooting-investigated
A police officer shot and killed a suicidal military veteran after the man aimed a rifle at the officer in the driveway of his home, according to police.

"He pointed the rifle," said Lt. Gary Millspaugh of the Aurora Police Department. "He was shot in the upper torso."

The man, whose identity has not been released, was rushed to an Aurora hospital Friday after the 4:04 p.m. incident and was later pronounced dead.

The officer who was involved in the shooting was not injured during the confrontation, police said.

A psychologist called 911 and said he had just got a call from a patient who was potentially suicidal, Millspaugh said.

The therapist explained that the man was a military veteran who suffered from post traumatic stress disorder and may have been abusing his psychotropic medications and drinking alcohol, Millspaugh said.

"He was despondent and suicidal," Millspaugh said. "He had serious ongoing mental health issues."

Aurora police drove to the man's home in the 3300 block of South Nucla Way. When police officers got out of his squad car, the man met the officers standing in the driveway of his home, said Chris Amsler, Aurora police spokesman.

He aimed the rifle at police and an officer fired one shot.

"Investigators will try to determine what his motive was. There have been circumstances where people have tried to use police to commit suicide," Amsler said. "I don't know if that is what this man was doing."
 

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I bet that psychologist feels like a real hero...

Maybe they shouldn't send regular cops on these type of calls


Now he was killed and didn't commit suicide.

Like so many we have all failed this Vet.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
"Suicide by cop" is a real thing and the shrink should have known better and just shown up himself.
Dirt bag cops
Granted we don't know any details. The way it reads is that it was a suicide-by-cop deal.

I didn't post it because I wanted to vilify cops. (If you point a gun at me, I'm dropping you too.)

Could the psych have done something different? Should he/she have? It's hard to tell without the details.

I guess I posted it because it's sad that vets get the PTSD label applied so quickly and the general public will just say, "Glad that deranged vet didn't hurt anyone." He'll be quickly forgotten and the real issue of how PTSD is handled, or mishandled, will never be addressed.
 

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A cop that hit and killed their intended target in one round...impressive. Seems every other story takes 30 shots and 3 injured bystanders.

But on a serious note, the psychiatrist did follow the book. He had a patient threatening self harm and notified police. Likely he requested a 302 (involuntary 72hr psych eval), police arrived and had a weapon pointed at them. They responded by the book.

IF we've got the full story here, then the fault lies with the vet. Just because someone is a veteran or has PTSD doesn't mean they get a free "do something stupid with no repercussions" card. Does it suck that it happened, sure. But still.
 

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He was just 1 of 22 Vets per day that kill themself. He needed help and was gun down by a cop. Way to go America. Sure he legally broke the law and rules of inguagement with police. They should have sent someone with special training to deal with him.
 

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He was just 1 of 22 Vets per day that kill themself. He needed help and was gun down by a cop. Way to go America. Sure he legally broke the law and rules of inguagement with police. They should have sent someone with special training to deal with him.
I am specially trained in CIT. If you know someone is armed, you respond differently. When you just have someone suicidal, you respond and assess. A rifle by ones side may elicit a different reaction, get cover and talk. A rifle pointed at you will get you killed.
 

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One of my closest friends was depressed several years ago and was talking to someone on one of those suicide help lines.
The next thing that happened was her house was surrounded by SWAT officers. Her husband came out to tell them there wasn't a problem, was promptly shunted to the back of a cruiser and grilled intensely on if there were any "weapons" in the house. He said he did own a gun but before he could explain it was secure they immediately left him locked in the back of the cruiser and deemed the situation "dangerous".
My friend came out totally freaking with what she saw and was then shot in the knee with a beanbag (and still has problems with that knee since) had the officers pile on her which caused the shot knee to be visciously torqued sideways.
I could go on but you get the picture. MANY departments do not have special training for officers to deal with those afflicted with potential mental health issues and it should be made mandatory.
Now I can understand the officer's reaction when the veteran pointed a rifle but even how they approached the property and whole situation may have been handled differently with a happier outcome with better training.
In my friends case they came in like Hitler into Poland and there is usually no need of heavy handed tactics for the mentally ill or anyone for that matter!
 

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He had a right to be there if it was his house. The guys that showed up to his house with costumes on and guns drawn didn't. Oh, and a cop taking one shot? That is an American first.
 

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How did this country carry on after WW2 with the PTSD and all that? I got assume what the boys did and saw back then was maybe, just maybe ,slightly more savage than anything before or since. Were they killing themselves at the current rate or taking up arms at various places with the same frequency we see today? How did they ever manage?
 

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The man called his Dr. You missed the point of needing special training. Your comment is Not funny.
No sir I understood perfectly, they just called the wrong person with the wrong skill set.
 

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How did this country carry on after WW2 with the PTSD and all that? I got assume what the boys did and saw back then was maybe, just maybe ,slightly more savage than anything before or since. Were they killing themselves at the current rate or taking up arms at various places with the same frequency we see today? How did they ever manage?
Just opinion here, but two huge differences.

First, society was all about men being masculine prior to the 60s/70s progressive movements. Part of being masculine is dealing with your own demons, not sharing and displaying them for all to see. Some people's demons got the better of them, but most learned to either lock those feelings away or to deal with them.

Secondly, the ideology behind the conflicts themselves. We went into WW1-2 with one goal: to put and end to the Axis war machine. Our enemies wore uniforms and generally followed a code of conduct (atleast in Europe). When you went into a town, you didn't have to worry about getting stabbed in the throat by the woman selling bread. We had a nobke reason to be there. Not to mention we shared a culture with these people.

We had no clearly defined goals or enemy in Iraq/Afghanistan (or Vietnam for that matter). The guy you bought falafels from yesterday could be the guy planting IEDs on your route tomorrow. The little kid selling DVDs in the market place could drop a grenade out the window into your open hatch tomorrow. And the only reasons we were involved is because of some politicians in D.C. who wanted to earn a few bucks. We have hardly a thing in common with any of them.

You get burned out having your head on a swivel 24/7. And that's what soldiers have been doing in the middle east for years now. Some can deal with that stress and bounce back, others can't because society tells them they can't/won't/shouldn't. What more can we expect when our society breeds victims?

I know I'll catch a LOT of flak for saying it...but I have no pity for those who commit suicide. Do I think this could have been avoided? Sure. But I also believe in being responsible for ones own actions.
 

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How did this country carry on after WW2 with the PTSD and all that? I got assume what the boys did and saw back then was maybe, just maybe ,slightly more savage than anything before or since. Were they killing themselves at the current rate or taking up arms at various places with the same frequency we see today? How did they ever manage?
I read something attributing the frequency of PTSD to the number of combat stress days that the current deployment model generates. Basically the average soldier in WWII was, as you say, exposed to extreme environments, but only for a relatively small number of days compared to a GWOT deployment. That being said it could also be a result of the Pez dispenser antidepressant policy that the VA has, or maybe PTSD just wasn't reported in the past.
 

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I read something attributing the frequency of PTSD to the number of combat stress days that the current deployment model generates. Basically the average soldier in WWII was, as you say, exposed to extreme environments, but only for a relatively small number of days compared to a GWOT deployment. That being said it could also be a result of the Pez dispenser antidepressant policy that the VA has, or maybe PTSD just wasn't reported in the past.
You hit the nail on the head! Length of time spent on the line could make or break you. In WW2 troops cycled through with more time away, month after month on the line even the strongest man will break.
 

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It is no fault of the officer. He did what his job required. He preserved his life.
The vet? It is a sad shame this happened.

How about this idea of medicate and move along be revisited?

The VA is an absolute disgusting failure. Modern medicine is a failure as well.
 

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The COP/LEO bashing and ignorant posts really gets old.......sad to see a fellow Vet with issues lose his life....

In the past several days there have been various threads that always segway into the COP/LEO bashing and lose bearing on the original post. Tired of it.

Again, sad to see another vet down.
 

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I've been a leo for almost 20 yrs, before that I was a Grunt Marine machinegunner and fought in Gulf War-I & Somalia. When I became a cop I noticed that there were some Veterans who didn't act like fellow Vets after they became cops. Totally disconnected from their military past and arrogant. Then thank God there were vets like me who found brotherhood in knowing that another Vet had their back out there on the streets. Then of course there were the non Vets, the college types, exec types, housewife types and sheltered types who became police officers to accomplish a lifelong dream or because it's easy money and you get to pack a gun wherever you want to. The non Vets are divided into two groups: "the I want to shoot somebody group" and "the I want to promote and go inside to make big money group". Us Veterans were in a seperate group, although every once in a great while there would be one Vet who would want to promote and do whatever it took to do that.

The Vets would always display a great amount of restraint when dealing with the public in any type of situation and if we had to escalate and use any type of force, it was quick and decisive. The non-Vets would either freeze up and turn it into a standoff for the division and SWAT would be called out. Or other times they would attempt to live out their fantasy of putting down a threat with gunfire, because they wanted to be on an elite list of the few officers such as myself who had used his/her firearm to stop a suspect and effect an arrest and protect human life. Either way you always let God determine where the round entered with careful aiming of course and if the suspect lived or died. Most times they lived if a Vet took the shot(s), but if a non-Vet had to use deadly force, then they'd unload major rounds down range to almost guarantee a death by multiple rounds and to ensure a hit. Too many video game fantasies I suppose.

The shooting boards and the DA would always conduct an investigation and determine that the Vet's fired a sufficient amount of rounds with justified results and the non-Vets fired too many rounds, but within policy and a recommendation for more training to reduce the amount of rounds fired to stop the threat.

The police commission and the chief would of course also conduct their own investigation to determination what happened based on all of the evidence at that time and decide on the outcome later
 
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