[M1A's r BEST]

Pre B CZ 85

9MM reloads (115 grain Precision Delta hollow point, 8.0 grains Blue Dot, Federal SPP)

I'd fired 6 or 7 shots when the pistol failed to feed. Everything sounded/felt normal to me. I tipped it sideways, saw the round hung up on the feed ramp (it appeared) and tipped it to the right to work the slide back to drop the round out on the table. The round didn't come out but this did.



Flipped it over.



Removed the magazine, the round came out, then I could see the blown brass case walls still in the chamber so I field stripped it to see it better



Pulled the piece of brass out with my finger tips.



No damage to the pistol (real dirty inside - not unburned powder, just residue/smoke on rounds in the top of the magazine and the chamber area of the slide/barrel). The pistol has those soft rubber grips on it that CZ sells. You'd think I'd have felt something when the gas escaped into the frame area, but I didn't.

You can't double charge Blue Dot. At 8.0 grains (0.5 grains under max in two different reloading sources - Nosler and Alliant websites) the powder comes to within about 1/8" of the case mouth.

Every charge is measured/weighed on a Hornady electronic measure/scale unit. I still weigh check 5 of every 50 on the scale (habit I do for the other loads that I run through a regular powder measure when loading some ball powders that meter better than Blue Dot).

These loads are accurate and shot in two CZ 75 compacts, the Pre B CZ 85, a P07, a P09 and a P01 with no issues up to now. I've opened up another 1,000 bullet box as I've run through the first one.

The firing pin mark is dead center of the primer, so the barrel was locked up/in place in the slide (or it would have been out of alignment and off center on the primer).

Overall length is 1.086" for these loads to get them to chamber in all my CZ 9MM pistols. The plunk test fine in the CZ 85, the CZ 75 Compact and my P01 (checked again to be sure when I got home.

Just a weak piece of brass?

Oh, and glad it was a steel framed CZ 85 and not something with a weaker frame. As I said, no damage at all to the Pre B antique. CZ makes some good pistols.

Nothing like this has every happened to me before. Gives you a "funny" feeling as your mind starts to "see" everything bit by bit after the event as you examine things.

 

[tonyben]

Bound to happen sometime with enough rounds downrange. Glad to see nobody hurt and nothing damaged. It's the price we pay for setting off mini controlled explosions inches away from our bodies. Sometimes the "controlled" aspect turns into "uncontrolled".

Tony.

 

[charlie98]

I've had more problems reloading 9mm than any other cartridge. When I was reloading for my HiPower, I would have some rounds barely cycle the slide, and the next would recoil so hard the hammer would follow the slide back into battery. I finally figured out the brass was the culprit... there are some fairly significant case volume differences in mixed military and commercial brass... so I quit loading mixed brass (and, in fact, quit loading 9mm altogether.)

Looks like you just had a bad or fatigued case...

 

[swagbrdr]

Do you know how many times this particular brass was reloaded?

 

[Hgunner]

Do you know how many times this particular brass was reloaded?

This, how many reloads on this brass.

I know I run 45 brass till the case splits.
Examine them as I reload and throw the splits away.

 

[hagar the horrible]

Blue Dot seems to be a funky powder, works well most of the time, but every now and then you get something "different". It is not recommended for 41 mag any more, and the suggested max loads for 44 mag was dropped by a couple of grains.

 

[Killashrub]

It happens. Rarely with commercial brass. More often with handloaders that want to toss the coin every reload.

 

[Guest]

Looking at the brass I have to wonder if it was a near out of battery(?), just enough to leave the rear case wall unsupported(?). Where I see the split at the feed ramp gives me that impression.

Looks like Pre B CZ 85 saved the day...

 

[angelonm]

Looking at the brass I have to wonder if it was a near out of battery(?), just enough to leave the rear case wall unsupported(?). Where I see the split at the feed ramp gives me that impression.

Looks like Pre B CZ 85 saved the day...

Thankfully everything is ok.
But it does look like it might have been out of battery.

 

[swagbrdr]

If, as others have mentioned, the case was fired out of battery, the question is why did it happen? Perhaps this case wasn't trimmed and you had head spacing issues?

 

[M1A's r BEST]

I've never trimmed pistol brass.

No idea how many reloads on that piece of brass. I reload my own, I reload what I pick up on the range (seems most folks don't reload 9MM) and I even bought 3,000 pieces of brass last year. I sort by head stamp but I don't keep a box of brass together through multiple reloads.

I wondered about an out of battery fire but the primer was hit dead center so the barrel had to be locked up into the slide.

If you've got a CZ 75/85, take a look at it. I'm not convinced the hammer will hit the firing pin when the slide is far enough back to allow the barrel not to be locked into the slide. With the slide back touching the hammer (with the hammer at half ), the hammer doesn't contact the firing pin on my Pre B CZ86. You've got to move the slide back a little bit farther, to line up the notches on the slide and frame for field stripping the pistol, to be able to force the barrel down/out of lock up. And the farther back you go with the slide, the more space you get between the hammer and the firing pin.

I'm going to break down the CZ 85 and the P01 (one of the new urban gray models) in a little bit and get some pictures to compare. I looked at both last night and don't recall much difference - specifically I thought the rounds were "loose" in the CZ 85 chamber but the "plunk" test the same in the P01 and are actually loose enough to rattle around (you can hear them click/click/click) when you shake the barrels with a round in it.

Pics of both later, for comparison/reference. Now, back to reloading some .38 specials.

 

[M1A's r BEST]

Couple of pictures.

This one is a round in the chamber of the CZ 85.



This one is a round in the chamber of the P01.



same 115 grain loads I was shooting when the case blew out.

Looks like about the same amount of case is visible with either one.

Oh, the barrel in the CZ 85 is not the original. It's a threaded barrel I bought from either CZ Custom or CZ USA (can't remember which) and fitted myself when rebuilding the CZ 85. Nice tight lock up, tighter than the P01, but that's what I wanted.

 

[swagbrdr]

Yeah, I generally don't have to trim pistol cases either. That would cause problems though. My guess is a worn out case.

 

[bfoosh006]

I would check your firing pin for "sticking" ... regardless of how it happened.

I wonder if the firing pin some how got "stuck" and when the slide slammed closed, fired the round.

BTW... whose primer ?

 

[M1A's r BEST]

It's a "Pre B" so it's easy to pull the firing pin and firing pin return spring. About identical to pulling one on a 1911.

I just had it out a few months back when I rebuilt it and sent it off to be cerakoted. I could pull it again just to see. It's only had a couple of boxes of ammo through it since then. I'd like to shoot it more but I'm always taking something else to the range to check out, sight it, etc.

Picture of it while I was waiting on the Cajun Gun Works floating trigger pin to come it so I could put the trigger back in it. Oh, the fiber optic front sight is a 1911 sight with the tenon filed round to fit the hole in the Pre B CZ 85 slide and barrel bushing. Worked great with the LPA adjustable rear sight.

 

[Eagle7840]

Blue Dot seems to be a funky powder, works well most of the time, but every now and then you get something "different". It is not recommended for 41 mag any more, and the suggested max loads for 44 mag was dropped by a couple of grains.

Blue Dot powder tends to be temperature sensitive more so on the colder side. My buddy used to reload .357 mag 158 gr semi-jacketed flat nose with Blue Dot in his Dan Wesson revolver. We went deer hunting on my Dad's property north of Spooner, WI and it was cold. The day before we did some fouling round shots and his cylinder locked upped. Case separation caused the lock up and the front of the casing was wedged into the cylinder. Primer was flat as a pancake and swelled in the pocket indicating overpressure issues. Later he sent his Dan Wesson in for inspection with a detailed report. They found no damage to the frame or cylinder but replaced the cylinder and retimed. Their recommendation was to stay away from Blue Dot for handgun reloading.

 

[charlie98]

Blue Dot seems to be a funky powder, works well most of the time, but every now and then you get something "different". It is not recommended for 41 mag any more, and the suggested max loads for 44 mag was dropped by a couple of grains.

I wondered that myself. As a big .41 reloader, I've quit using BlueDot completely... but the OP's load is actually under published max data. That is not to say he got it in a funky case (probably not, it's FC) or perhaps a fatigued case. BlueDot would not be my first choice for something like a 115grn bullet in the 9mm... but there is data for it, so go figure.

 

[Guest]

Looks pretty clear to me what happened by all the pics. Your brass ran long, case length is critical when it headspaces on the case mouth and the web area & case wall was pushed back enough to be unsupported in the chamber, take a good look at the pics, it blew out at the top of the feed ramp, at the top of the feed ramp where it bevels into the chamber is the most critical area, only takes a thousandth or two of unsupported case wall for a separation (or worse) to occur. Also, not checking case length, picking up range brass that's been loaded how many times(?) Could really ruin your day!

FYI : I have the same Pre B CZ 85 that I purchased in Germany circa 1990, all steel construction and built like a tank, that's what saved the day, had it been a Glock or similar polymer frame pistol you may not have been so lucky, especially a Glock and not because I'm knocking them, it's because that beveled area above the feed ramp is more pronounced into the chamber and less forgiving, especially if some Bubba has done a polishing job and took a Dremel to it.

No trick to loading 9MM, don't find it anymore difficult than anything else, just check your case length, I only bother with trimming if it's over max. I at least try to sort it by headstamp into lots to keep track of how many times fired, though I sometimes end up with mixed lots and not a big deal. Picking up range brass OK if it looks to be coming from a new box, but, if it looks like reloads and someone left it could be for reason and best to leave it.

 

[swagbrdr]

Looks pretty clear to me what happened by all the pics. Your brass ran long, case length is critical when it headspaces on the case mouth and the web area & case wall was pushed back enough to be unsupported in the chamber, take a good look at the pics, it blew out at the top of the feed ramp, at the top of the feed ramp where it bevels into the chamber is the most critical area, only takes a thousandth or two of unsupported case wall for a separation (or worse) to occur. Also, not checking case length, picking up range brass that's been loaded how many times(?) Could really ruin your day!

FYI : I have the same Pre B CZ 85 that I purchased in Germany circa 1990, all steel construction and built like a tank, that's what saved the day, had it been a Glock or similar polymer frame pistol you may not have been so lucky, especially a Glock and not because I'm knocking them, it's because that beveled area above the feed ramp is more pronounced into the chamber and less forgiving, especially if some Bubba has done a polishing job and took a Dremel to it.

No trick to loading 9MM, don't find it anymore difficult than anything else, just check your case length, I only bother with trimming if it's over max. I at least try to sort it by headstamp into lots to keep track of how many times fired, though I sometimes end up with mixed lots and not a big deal. Picking up range brass OK if it looks to be coming from a new box, but, if it looks like reloads and someone left it could be for reason and best to leave it.

Yep, that was one of my thoughts too. Although most of my pistol brass I reload doesn't need to be trimmed. I check it every time I load some up. You never know without measuring every one.

 

[charlie98]

Yep, that was one of my thoughts too. Although most of my pistol brass I reload doesn't need to be trimmed. I check it every time I load some up. You never know without measuring every one.

I can't say I've ever trimmed a piece of handgun brass in my life... I don't know if I've really consciously measured a .45 or 9mm case, either.