[Lazerus2000]

While YPMMV,
I personally feel that the so called new, most effective, modern, Tacticool
"STRETCH YOUR SUPPORT ARM OUT FRONT TO MAXIMISE LEVERAGE"
technique, which seems to dominate the run and gun matches, and even some of the highly respected "tactical" training facilities,
is IMHO only suitable for some people,
and is best reserved for the very short M4 type carbines.

I know I've tried it a few times and even with my supershort AR 15,
it just doesn't feel right for me. Many of us ordinary, regular human beings, especially when shooting the bigger, heavier, longer weapons, are still better off holding the weapon closer to the mag well.

However,
I'm trying to keep an open mind here.

I see pictures posted here on the forum of SAGE M14 builds with an AFG WAYYyyyyyy out there at the front of the fore arm. And with Vertical Fore Grips mounted anywhere from right in front of the magazine, again all the way out to the front.

Is there any one who actually shoots their 12 - 14 lb HEAVY SAGE M14,
or any other M14 EBR,
EFFECTIVELY
in CQB type quick and dirty stuff,
using this long arm technique??

Or are these fore arm gadgets just for the pretty pictures and the airsoft boys??

Enquiring minds would really like to know ...
am I missing some thing here??

PS: The very best local CQB shooters that I personally know, use a magazine hold on the M14, even with an M14 shorty.

And on their shorty ARs, they may or may not use a VFG.

I admit to being some what of a dinosaur. I never was trained as a door kicker myself. My decades ago training as a Canadian Infantry Officer DID however include House Cleaning with the FN C1 A1 BATTLE rifle and the Sterling SMG. So I am familiar with the theories and the concepts of CQB ... even if a bit out of date.

So educate me ...
show me a Utube video of some one EFFECTIVELY shooting an M14 EBR, quick and dirty,
with the "Tacticool long arm" technique,
maybe even with an AFG or a VFG mounted WAYYyyyy up front.

Make me a believer.

Or are these gadgets,
when used on an M14,
just for the Tacticool look,
for pretty pictures,
and the air soft boys??
[
LAZ 1

 

[308_SSD]

While shooting with a Home land security trainer.........He taught me this technique.....I have to say, it feels very weird at first.......it takes some practice. Once you get over the weird factor it seems to work quite well, especially when shooting on the move. We actually came up with a modified extended arm when using the Rogue, because our system is so darn short.

 

[Lazerus2000]

AHHHhhh ...
the bullpup factor!!!
I forgot about the bull pups.

My experience with the Israeli TAVOR BP showed me that,
except for the AWKWARD magazine changes,
with a bit of practice to overcome years of built in Muscle Memory,
learned on the conventional platforms,
a BP design might just be my personal best choice for CQB,
But you already know that,
[

However,
in my experience,
the TAVOR definitely needs some type of efficient muzzle device to hold down the front on fast double taps. Because, even shooting the lowly poodle popper 5.56 round,there was more muzzle jump for me with the TAVOR than with my Shorty AR 15.
With so much of the weight at the back, the balance of the weapon changes dramatically. I don't know if practice or technique would overcome this engrained "MUSCLE MEMORY" advantage I have with the shorty AR, but so far, without a lot of practice and/or learning some new techniques,
much as I love the BP concept of the Tavor,
I'm faster with a shorty AR.

Now if we up the ante from 5.56 to 7.62 NATO,
I suspect this "ratio" would still stay the same for me.

I used to be pretty good at practical matches shooting a shorty AR 10.
Hopefully some day I'll drop by for a visit, and get to shoot the BP Rogue for comparison.
Maybe then you can show me some of these new techniques??
That would be fun AND educational.

Until then,
I'm still waiting for a UTUBE Video to demonstrate the EFFECTIVE use of the new technique.
LAZ 1
[

 

[308_SSD]

Ya, we are the B*#Tard step children...................and that's ok, the Bullpup revolution is rolling!

AHHHhhh ...
the bullpup factor!!!
I forgot about the bull pups.

My experience with the Israeli TAVOR BP showed me that,
except for the AWKWARD magazine changes,
with a bit of practice to overcome years of built in Muscle Memory,
learned on the conventional platforms,
a BP design might just be my personal best choice for CQB,
But you already know that,
[

However,
in my experience,
the TAVOR definitely needs some type of efficient muzzle device to hold down the front on fast double taps. Because, even shooting the lowly poodle popper 5.56 round,there was more muzzle jump for me with the TAVOR than with my Shorty AR 15.
With so much of the weight at the back, the balance of the weapon changes dramatically. I don't know if practice or technique would overcome this engrained "MUSCLE MEMORY" advantage I have with the shorty AR, but so far, without a lot of practice and/or learning some new techniques,
much as I love the BP concept of the Tavor,
I'm faster with a shorty AR.

Now if we up the ante from 5.56 to 7.62 NATO,
I suspect this "ratio" would still stay the same for me.

I used to be pretty good at practical matches shooting a shorty AR 10.
Hopefully some day I'll drop by for a visit, and get to shoot the BP Rogue for comparison.
Maybe then you can show me some of these new techniques??
That would be fun AND educational.

Until then,
I'm still waiting for a UTUBE Video to demonstrate the EFFECTIVE use of the new technique.
LAZ 1
[

 

[GeneCo]

Well, I'm going to tip toe into this( as I feel this thread is already loaded), by saying that all M1A but the SOCOM( or bullpup) is not suitable for CBQ, so that technique doesn't apply to 99% of M14/M1A and is not to be compared with a AR M4, et al.

I'm not sure what your intent is for this thread, but are you denying that CBQ training has evolved? IS your mind closed that this is a viable technique or what?

However, it is a common technique being used in competition and being taught in the CBQ field, with short rifles and SG.

IMO, this comes from shooting the SG in 3 gun. The Socom is as heavy as a SG and so will handle like a SG and so should be handled like a SG.....to be honest, I don't know of anyone who will use a .308, M1A or otherwise, in a 3 gun, over an AR or AK.



I have been following a man named Gabe Suarez. He's an instructor who has been questioning the accepted, "common knowledge " in firearms instruction and has incuded Force on force, with airsoft, to test the "realities" of fights and self defense. When you stand 2 men face to face and have them draw and fire, all the other self defense stuff taught goes out the window. From following Gabe's thoughts, I have switched to appendix carry exclusively and carry 2 guns- a spare mag will not fix a broken gun, a 2nd gun will and I'm more afraid of an attack with a knife than a gun.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPYGfMAujo&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0fPL4f3Eqc&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc[/ame]

I could point out the science of it,,,,,,,,, holding a heavy gun at the balance point, with half the weight extended past my hands and expecting to efficiently maneuver it just doesn't make sense to me. Imo, I have much more maneuverability and control (which translates to accuracy), by holding it out past the balance point....

But the bottom line is, it's matter of personal preference and all according to what you practice and are used to.


Here's this:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZi_kDkOjIQ[/ame]

 

[308_SSD]

GeneCo,(no tip toeing!) I disagree with your statement on using Ar's over .308.................Rouge 2 and 3 gun competitor's are growing.........just ask SappNasty or travelingman!

 

[Lazerus2000]

Geneco,
well done response.

I guess I should clarify up front that,
I DO BELIEVE that the best all around and MOST VERSATILE weapon for military AND civilians is a short and powerful rifle. I've never been a fan of the 5.56 cartridge, but I've always been a fan of the AR family's excellent ergonomics. For decades, I've been firmly convinced that the best single weapon available to me for my personal defense is a short barreled AR 10, chambered in .308 Win, with several different loads [ 110 gr to 7.62 NATO BALL to 200 gr ].

I've explored other calibers in the AR 15, and until I build ANOTHER .300 Whisper [ I've already had two, and also played around with a 6.8 SPC AR 15 ] I am convinced that, for me, the extra power and range and versatility of a .308 Chambered AR 10, is still better for me than any short barreled AR 15... IN ANY CALIBER.

However,
as I've gotten older,
I find that I can shoot my 12.5" AR in 5.56 faster at CQB practice than I can my .308 Win chambered AR 10, no matter how light I load down my .308 WIN CQB loads. Of course, I can shoot my CMMG .22 LR conversion on my AR 15 shorty fastest of all. So shooting at paper, going only by TIME and ACCURACY, my first choice should be my shorty AR 15, with the .22 LR conversion kit. Fast, light, accurate, and with enough .22 LR dumped into a target, potentially lethal.

But speed and accuracy aren't EVERYTHING!!!
DVC was my mantra for more than a decade.
I've also competed successfully in many Bowling pin matches, with rifle, pistol, shotgun and revolver..

So I understand that POWER is important. ... maybe the most important variable in the equation when we truly practice at "PRACTICAL" shooting.
ps: ?WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO BOWLING PIN MATCHES?

SO, I score ONE hit with an AR 10 shooting .308, as equal to a double tap of 5.56 poodle shooter. Scored this way, I find that for myself any how, the scores can become competitive, with my shorty AR 10 coming close to matching my even shorter AR 15.

BUT,
with increased power almost inevitably comes increased weight.
And increased recoil.
And increased muzzle blast.
And increased operator fatigue ...
especially if you are an older retired gentleman,
SUCH AS MYSELF.

So,
while I am still keeping my shorty AR 15 around,
I am always looking for ways to make my AR 10 and my M14 lighter,
and also perform FASTER!!!

If there is some new, more modern technique,
born from experience with the super short/super light M4 type CQB optimised fire arms that does indeed translate over to the heavier, more powerful M14 and AR 10,
and also to the older, slower, less athletic persons [ SUCH AS MYSELF ]
then I want to learn about these techniques.

I do tell my self that I have an open mind ...
but I also want PROOF,
personal proof,
that these techniques will work for me and my 7.62 NATO chambered HEAVY HITTERS.

And if they really do work, for me, with my advanced age and decrepit body,
WITH THE HEAVIER 7.62 CHAMBERED WEAPONS,
why then I may just have to learn them.

PS: I haven't checked out your videos just yet,
but I promise that I will,
just as soon as I get back from the range.
thanks for posting,
LAZ 1
[

 

[GeneCo]

GeneCo,(no tip toeing!) I disagree with your statement on using Ar's over .308.................Rouge 2 and 3 gun competitor's are growing.........just ask SappNasty or travelingman!

Well, of course, you HAVE to disgaree...LOL ,,,,,, I don't know that those 2 men will change the face of 3 gun, but I will concede that with more bullpup chassis being sold, they will find their way into more and more 2 and 3 gun competitions....still, the AR platform is very popular and when miliseconds count, will probably prevail...


Btw, if your chassis didn't cost so much, I'd own one, too,,, I'm a fan of the bullpup

 

[nebmike]

To the original question...

...I have to say that when I first started seeing the 'tacticool long-arm technique' I thought it not only looked dumb but would cause fatigue more quickly in that arm. I tried it a few times and it was, well, uncomfortable.

That all changed when I decided to buy one of the angled Magpul fore grips for my mid-length 6.5 Grendel AR. That grip felt odd until I moved it as far forward as I could on the rail... and presto... I had found, what to me, felt like the most perfect hold on a rifle I'd ever experienced. Trust me, based on my initial opinions about the straight arm hold, I really tried not to like it -- but it just works.

Shooting against a clock using lateral movement from target-to-target with the 6.5 Grendel, my times definitely improved with the 'new' technique over anything I was able to run with a more rearward grip. It seems to help control/stop the momentum of the muzzle at the end of the swing.

The more I tried it the more convinced I became that, for me anyway, this was an improvement.

Enter my new SOCOM 16: I've only had it for two weeks now, but I've spent hours handling it and I'm finding the same to be true -- an extended grip is not only more comfortable for me, but it seems to increase the control I have over the movement of the weapon. I havent gotten to run it against a clock yet, but I will.

FWIW
YMMV

 

[kendapp]

I too have tried extending my support arm all the way forward and griping the forend/rail on my ar platforms. It was akward and uncomfortable. I run vfg's closer to the magwell than the far end of the rail now. I have always wondered about running a magpul afg further forward. So you guys are liking the magpul afg? I may have to give that a try and try extending my arm again.

 

[Philz M1A]

I too have tried extending my support arm all the way forward and griping the forend/rail on my ar platforms. It was akward and uncomfortable. I run vfg's closer to the magwell than the far end of the rail now. I have always wondered about running a magpul afg further forward. So you guys are liking the magpul afg? I may have to give that a try and try extending my arm again.

same here, I think it comes down to whatever feels comfortable for you the shooter with respect to your body style/training level. People are built differently, and what feels great to some might not feel great to others. My thoughts are if you can shoot and move and put rounds on target effectively, I don't care if you have your arm out, in tight, or do it with one hand tied behind your back and in your underwear. What I don't like is when other people try to force their style on you. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY! Um, no.

Just my opinion.

 

[USMC6094]

As Nancy Hicks-Gribble would say, "do what ever turns ya on"

 

[Whatsinaname181]

SICK OF THE WORD "TACTICAL", especially from non-combat-having types........... there, i said it. (this is not directed at anyone here)

 

[USMC6094]

I thought "tactical" was everything now-a-days LMAO

 

[Dredsen]

Its for race guns

 

[Mocos]

While YPMMV,
I personally feel that the so called new, most effective, modern, Tacticool
"STRETCH YOUR SUPPORT ARM OUT FRONT TO MAXIMISE LEVERAGE"
technique, which seems to dominate the run and gun matches, and even some of the highly respected "tactical" training facilities,
is IMHO only suitable for some people,
and is best reserved for the very short M4 type carbines.

I know I've tried it a few times and even with my supershort AR 15,
it just doesn't feel right for me. Many of us ordinary, regular human beings, especially when shooting the bigger, heavier, longer weapons, are still better off holding the weapon closer to the mag well.

However,
I'm trying to keep an open mind here.

I see pictures posted here on the forum of SAGE M14 builds with an AFG WAYYyyyyyy out there at the front of the fore arm. And with Vertical Fore Grips mounted anywhere from right in front of the magazine, again all the way out to the front.

Is there any one who actually shoots their 12 - 14 lb HEAVY SAGE M14,
or any other M14 EBR,
EFFECTIVELY
in CQB type quick and dirty stuff,
using this long arm technique??

Or are these fore arm gadgets just for the pretty pictures and the airsoft boys??

Enquiring minds would really like to know ...
am I missing some thing here??

PS: The very best local CQB shooters that I personally know, use a magazine hold on the M14, even with an M14 shorty.

And on their shorty ARs, they may or may not use a VFG.

I admit to being some what of a dinosaur. I never was trained as a door kicker myself. My decades ago training as a Canadian Infantry Officer DID however include House Cleaning with the FN C1 A1 BATTLE rifle and the Sterling SMG. So I am familiar with the theories and the concepts of CQB ... even if a bit out of date.

So educate me ...
show me a Utube video of some one EFFECTIVELY shooting an M14 EBR, quick and dirty,
with the "Tacticool long arm" technique,
maybe even with an AFG or a VFG mounted WAYYyyyy up front.

Make me a believer.

Or are these gadgets,
when used on an M14,
just for the Tacticool look,
for pretty pictures,
and the air soft boys??
[
LAZ 1

why just yesterdayl you said this.....

"The op rod guide retaining bolt is wayyyyy too far forward for me to get my support hand over it comfortably. But if you are built like an orangutang, VERY STRONG, with VERY LONG arms, I suppose you could actually hold that 12 lb rifle wayyyyyyyy out there,
and shoot it ??effectively??.
For more than a few minutes???
For more than a few rounds???

I haven't seen it done that way EFFECTIVLEY with an M14.
At least not yet.
Maybe some one can post a Utube video???

While YPMMV,
IMHO,
the 'STRETCH YOUR SUPPORT ARM OUT AS FAR AS YOU CAN TO MAXIMISE LEVERAGE TECHNIQUE" is only suitable for some people, and is best reserved for the very short M4 type carbines. Many of us regular human beings, shooting the bigger, heavier, longer weapons, are still better off holding the weapon closer to the mag well.

As I said,
YPMMV,
however I have been told by "a very credible source" that the JTF2 guys he's seen practicing still use a magazine hold on their shorty AR carbines. For those of you who don't know who JTF2 is, they are the Canadian equivalent of the US Navy seals ... only a lot quieter, humbler, and more polite. And yes, they wear gloves!!!!

PS: If you choose to add the removable rail section under the forearm, you can mount an AFG to our EBR stock just in front of the magazine. Even then, even on a SHORTY M14, I find the support arm is out too far for me personally.
YPMMV"

m4's typically have 9" forearms...the width of your palm is 4"..you have very little option in being able to extend your grip far forward with out frying your fingers...that is of course if you wear nomex gloves. On the m-14s, special people like me can extend my grip forward and can reach beyond the forward sling mount....and can touch the front stock ferrule...and shoot all at the same time....without gloves..... all 5' 10" of me....and no, I cannot touch my knees while standing up straight. Holding a m-14 just forward of the mag well is because it is easier to support the weight of the rifle. Your support arm can't handle the leverage for long periods of time...that't why I put together a 7lb 14oz socom..enter the AFG or vertical grip....the technique is to pull it in toward you where you have more strength to do that than to support something vertically.....so ....I don't have either an AFG or vertical grip....I have my own design. I do read your posts....do you remember what
you posted.....

 

[Mocos]

btw....since when is a m-14 ebr a cqb rifle......more like a designated rifleman's gig. however,there are more AR10's with trijicons 4x's showing up in the sandbox....so they say...

 

[Mocos]

Its for race guns

look at it this way......battle rifles are raceguns for the masses(military)because they want to win with the minimum amount of training..and in this case winning is killing...you may never fire a weapon in anger but you train to do so if the occasion arises and you endeaver to "beat the other guy to the punch" with whatever it takes regardless of what they call it. I think the extended arm thing is a natural extension of pointing at something....you've been doing it all your life...extend your arm to point at a direction, an attraction, an item....and you don't have to sight down your arm to do it..so put that pointing thing you have attached to your hand on your forearm and go at it....

 

[Mikey]

GeneCo,(no tip toeing!) I disagree with your statement on using Ar's over .308.................Rouge 2 and 3 gun competitor's are growing.........just ask SappNasty or travelingman!

Drop me off a rouge and I'll toss my m14 in it and shoot next weekends 3 gun match with it - no questions asked - whatever will help the m14 cause! RNGR2

Back to the original post, in cqb style 3 gun I shoot with my arm pretty far extended - not as far as it will go, but pretty close with just a little bend left at the elbow, what can I say - it works.

That being said, that's with AR15's (but not short ones - mine is an 18in med weight barrel with a 13in troy trx extreme tube hand-guard and an A2 stock) and USGI stocked m14's not sage stocks - I imagine the weight of the sage would be a factor for some of the smaller guys like me, but if the weight works than it's a good method to employ.

As with any shooting method, I'm sure it's not for everyone - but at the same time, it does work and it's not just to look cool - I can drive the gun considerably faster and keep it on target with greater ease for faster follow up shots by having my arm extended, preferably with my thumb over the top of the gun when it wont interfere with the sights.

but, like I said, to each their own.

 

[GeneCo]

Enter my new SOCOM 16: I've only had it for two weeks now, but I've spent hours handling it and I'm finding the same to be true -- an extended grip is not only more comfortable for me, but it seems to increase the control I have over the movement of the weapon. I havent gotten to run it against a clock yet, but I will.

FWIW
YMMV

Same here, I have a Socom 16 and it feels absolutely natural to me. BTw, it's not "all the way out to the end", but it's past the mag......btw, the pistol grip is just as important as the AFG.