M14 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 49 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Built up socom16. Archangel stock; Springfield gen4 scope mount; aimpoint pro rd; vortex micro 3x (took off and sent to vortex for warranty); surefire light; and sadlak mag release.

Looking for some feedback as to the build. May sell off the micro 3x and use the aimpoint on another 556 build for a lpvo. Criticisms are welcome!

449618
449619
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,567 Posts
The optics look high to me for the stock height, but if it fits your face, that is what matters. If you enjoy shooting it, and it handles well, go drive it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
The optics look high to me for the stock height, but if it fits your face, that is what matters. If you enjoy shooting it, and it handles well, go drive it.
Agreed. Sits too high, but cant do much bc of the mount, and optics being designed for other platforms. Plus wanted to keep the iron sights as backup.

Need to put some more rounds through it, but so far so good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,516 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,516 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
So you can remove the intermediate spacer on the aimpoint mount and lower it a little. I would do that and toss it out onto the scout mount and I bet you'll be alot more comfortable and have a better optic height.

If you bought the aimpoint new there's shorter hardware included. 4 small Allen or torx bolts from the bottom of the mount and it comes apart. It takes a little effort to separate but you'll be able to drop it about 1/2 at the mount.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
So you can remove the intermediate spacer on the aimpoint mount and lower it a little. I would do that and toss it out onto the scout mount and I bet you'll be alot more comfortable and have a better optic height.

If you bought the aimpoint new there's shorter hardware included. 4 small Allen or torx bolts from the bottom of the mount and it comes apart. It takes a little effort to separate but you'll be able to drop it about 1/2 at the mount.
Appreciate the suggestion. Was thinking that too, but noticed that it then doesn't match the micro 3x height (sits slightly lower). But then again, suppose if it doesn't mess w poi - let it be a little off?

That's also why I'm thinking of different set ups like lpvo. Problem is, I love the benefits of a aimpoint, but want the benefits of a lpvo. From what I've read, w a 16" barrel, i cant get the max out of a .308, so dont need the ability to readily reach out a touch someone who's more than 300 yds out (would be nice tho).

Maybe build an AR and put the aimpoint/micro3x on that, and get the lpvo w a mini RD for the socom? Lol...just need $$$.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,567 Posts
quick release rings, then switch between both depending on what you want.

For shaving the very most speed, you can't beat a no magnification red dot, which is different than a 1x magnification scope, let alone a LPVO. Not only do they tend to be lighter, but there is no requirement for your head to be at the right distance and centered to get the correct image (within the eyebox), and there is no image distortion at all. A LPVO, with good image geometry, a generous eyebox, and a stock that provides a good cheek weld that naturally puts your head in the right place, if it is good, can be very close, such that if you didn't compare them back to back you might not even notice the shortcoming, but in terms of both eyes open vision, but I haven't seen one yet that is actually the equal in that regard. Whether that affects target acquisition to a meaningful degree, I can't say. I don't compete, I don't test, I only play, but in swinging on target during playtime, I get the feeling that my red dot setups would be the best tool for me within 50 yards for quick shooting. However, I also think that the differences in both eyes open vision between the LPVO and options and red dots while real, are also as much about psychological 'feel' as cognitive processing and visual feedback, and for me personally, about as significant as having a ring/donut/horse shoe in the red dot, which helps my brain figure out the center of the sight, and placing it on target, faster, and all of it secondary to the weight, balance, handling, and fit of the rifle, none of which is as important as the muscle memory of working the rifle, to ensure that the safety is off, and a round is chambered, when it's time to pull the trigger, but also ensuring that the safety is engaged and/or rifle empty when it is not. For me, though, the largest advantage to a red dot is the weight. It isn't a HUGE difference, but between a small variable optic with rings and a micro red dot can be as much as 3/4 of a pound. What is more, most red dots work fine on a forward rail such as an M14.CA SHG, which itself weighs 6 1/2 oz, but if you subtract the weight of the handguard it is replacing, nets to maybe 3 1/2 Ounces. It also allows mounting a red dot (at least a micro or an RMR) low enough so that you can set the comb height to be optimal for either irons or the dot, but still useable for both.

You can see on Hodgej1996's mean green with the M14.ca SHG and a higher comb insert...
449684


This is genome with the same handguard/rail with a micro Holosun that is somewhat a copy of the Aimpoint Micro, I believe (if they made a circle pattern, I'd buy an aimpoint because of the durability reputation and not made in China, but I don't know that they do)

449685



Same guy with a Burris FF3, which is really minimal, and lightest weight, but less drop resistant (at least I believe, I haven't tested both) but it also has no donut.

449686


And in that regard, the champion is MeatyMac, who used an Ultimak rail (slightly lower, little heavier I think) with an Aimpoint Micro, and a tall front sight, to achieve actual co-witness...
449687


449688


But on that tangent, the value of any of it depends on how much you like irons, either in tandem or the ability to switch quickly.


OTOH, a red dot doesn't do magnification very well, and a I don't believe that a magnifier does magnification very well either, but I haven't tried them, but I've never heard anybody imply that a magnifier with a red dot is near the equal of a scope when it comes to optical quality, only the opposite. A scope can also correct for a shooter's vision, which is where they really shine for me. I recently got a red dot with an ACSS reticle, and it is fine for practical use, but it is also no better, maybe worse for me, than the standard 65 MOA circle and dot, because my vision isn't good enough to actually use the reticle (or whatever it is) on targets at distance for the purpose of determining holdover. It may be better in the sense that it at least gives me something to reference and I know the distance, or can estimate based on the blur, and as there is more light and my iris closes, my vision will get better, but compared to an optic that actually provides vision compensation ability and focuses an image, it is a VERY far cry, even at 1x, and at 4x or 6x or 8x, there is no comparison at all, at least for me. If you can still see very well, that would weigh into your equation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Appreciate the suggestion. Was thinking that too, but noticed that it then doesn't match the micro 3x height (sits slightly lower). But then again, suppose if it doesn't mess w poi - let it be a little off?

That's also why I'm thinking of different set ups like lpvo. Problem is, I love the benefits of a aimpoint, but want the benefits of a lpvo. From what I've read, w a 16" barrel, i cant get the max out of a .308, so dont need the ability to readily reach out a touch someone who's more than 300 yds out (would be nice tho).

Maybe build an AR and put the aimpoint/micro3x on that, and get the lpvo w a mini RD for the socom? Lol...just need $$$.
Ahhhhhh, color me dumb. I read that as you were bouncing between an RMR style red dot and the aimpoint.....not running a magnifier.....i apologize.

So in that case you would have to drop the magnifier into an absolute cowitness mount to match the height of the aimpoint. ....once you start adding that cost up for a new mount etc I would honestly suggest going with an LPVO over the magnifier. Especially since you'll get a much more comfortable eye relief.


I am running a Primary Arms 1-6x24 LPVO FFP. Once I figured out how to properly set the diopter it's legit very close to running a red dot at 1x. I didn't believe the hype and had a hard time at first. But no **** once I realized I had it adjusted wrong, it changed everything. On the 1-6 with the ACSS BDC I'm good out to 600yds and that's more than I could ever want. Setting it up on QD mounts allows me to bounce between the dot and LPVO which is nice, and will give you choice to run an optic geared towards your planned course of fire vs compromising. Having both is awesome and down the road, like you said, you'll have an optic to dedicate to another setup.

Now, as mentioned by Muppet, I highly suggest an LPVO over a magnifier. You give up a little speed to the red dot without a doubt, but there's alot of factors that dictate things, and it's your rifle so you need to be the one that's happy with the end result.

For me, I find I appreciate having both available depending on my mood I can't decide on either 100% so I just swap them at my leisure. Red dot zeroed at 25yds gets me to about 350 without any holds, and the LPVO is my "I can't see **** that far" choice.




Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
quick release rings, then switch between both depending on what you want.

For shaving the very most speed, you can't beat a no magnification red dot, which is different than a 1x magnification scope, let alone a LPVO. Not only do they tend to be lighter, but there is no requirement for your head to be at the right distance and centered to get the correct image (within the eyebox), and there is no image distortion at all. A LPVO, with good image geometry, a generous eyebox, and a stock that provides a good cheek weld that naturally puts your head in the right place, if it is good, can be very close, such that if you didn't compare them back to back you might not even notice the shortcoming, but in terms of both eyes open vision, but I haven't seen one yet that is actually the equal in that regard. Whether that affects target acquisition to a meaningful degree, I can't say. I don't compete, I don't test, I only play, but in swinging on target during playtime, I get the feeling that my red dot setups would be the best tool for me within 50 yards for quick shooting. However, I also think that the differences in both eyes open vision between the LPVO and options and red dots while real, are also as much about psychological 'feel' as cognitive processing and visual feedback, and for me personally, about as significant as having a ring/donut/horse shoe in the red dot, which helps my brain figure out the center of the sight, and placing it on target, faster, and all of it secondary to the weight, balance, handling, and fit of the rifle, none of which is as important as the muscle memory of working the rifle, to ensure that the safety is off, and a round is chambered, when it's time to pull the trigger, but also ensuring that the safety is engaged and/or rifle empty when it is not. For me, though, the largest advantage to a red dot is the weight. It isn't a HUGE difference, but between a small variable optic with rings and a micro red dot can be as much as 3/4 of a pound. What is more, most red dots work fine on a forward rail such as an M14.CA SHG, which itself weighs 6 1/2 oz, but if you subtract the weight of the handguard it is replacing, nets to maybe 3 1/2 Ounces. It also allows mounting a red dot (at least a micro or an RMR) low enough so that you can set the comb height to be optimal for either irons or the dot, but still useable for both.

You can see on Hodgej1996's mean green with the M14.ca SHG and a higher comb insert... View attachment 449684

This is genome with the same handguard/rail with a micro Holosun that is somewhat a copy of the Aimpoint Micro, I believe (if they made a circle pattern, I'd buy an aimpoint because of the durability reputation and not made in China, but I don't know that they do)

View attachment 449685


Same guy with a Burris FF3, which is really minimal, and lightest weight, but less drop resistant (at least I believe, I haven't tested both) but it also has no donut.

View attachment 449686

And in that regard, the champion is MeatyMac, who used an Ultimak rail (slightly lower, little heavier I think) with an Aimpoint Micro, and a tall front sight, to achieve actual co-witness...
View attachment 449687

View attachment 449688

But on that tangent, the value of any of it depends on how much you like irons, either in tandem or the ability to switch quickly.


OTOH, a red dot doesn't do magnification very well, and a I don't believe that a magnifier does magnification very well either, but I haven't tried them, but I've never heard anybody imply that a magnifier with a red dot is near the equal of a scope when it comes to optical quality, only the opposite. A scope can also correct for a shooter's vision, which is where they really shine for me. I recently got a red dot with an ACSS reticle, and it is fine for practical use, but it is also no better, maybe worse for me, than the standard 65 MOA circle and dot, because my vision isn't good enough to actually use the reticle (or whatever it is) on targets at distance for the purpose of determining holdover. It may be better in the sense that it at least gives me something to reference and I know the distance, or can estimate based on the blur, and as there is more light and my iris closes, my vision will get better, but compared to an optic that actually provides vision compensation ability and focuses an image, it is a VERY far cry, even at 1x, and at 4x or 6x or 8x, there is no comparison at all, at least for me. If you can still see very well, that would weigh into your equation.
A lot of great info! Appreciate the feedback, and I agree w everything you said.

I feel like I'm trying to fit a square into a round peg. Either red dot and lpvo have pros/cons, and it ultimately depends on what you're using it for. Main reason why I got the ap pro was bc of its durability/reliability. Wanted something that'll work when everything goes to sht. Problem w that is that the optic sits high (even w a cheek riser). Issue w lpvo is that it's not as drop resistant, and may not be necessary given the distance I'm looking to use the s16.

Also, have a bit of an astigmatism (which is why I was looking at prism scopes, but those sit way high and have an small eye box). Get a bit of a star pattern, but think its negligible given the benefits of the ap pro.

@hodgexj1996

Lol. "Cant see sht that far scope." I agree w you too, that's why I keep playing w the idea of a lpvo. But if you're getting (assumingly) decent accuracy at 350 w a 25yd zero using only a rd, maybe dump the magnifier for a lpvo (vortex?) and a mini canted rd? Keep the ap pro for another build down the line?

Sigh. We'll see!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
My only gripe with my lpvo set up is it's heavy. 11.5lbs without a mag or sling. Add an offset dot to that combination and youre at a 13lb+ rifle. So in an attempt at playing all angles, I realistically keep the red dot on it for all around use and the LPVO can be tossed on in less than 60 seconds if needed. So if weight is of no issue, or at least less of a concern I vote LPVO. It's kinda like cheating and you'll be making hits all day long at you're projected ranges. It will also bring down your overall height to something likely more comfortable and natural feeling for yourself.

Keep in mind, I'm a pain in the ass and am building my rifle to compete in 3 gun, so I'm like a triangle peg in a round hole. No matter what I do I'm compromising. For me a permenant solution doesn't exist for each of my problems without putting me into the open class, which would be competitive suicide since that's the "pro" class. So I just made a Swiss army knife to do good at all and great at none.

If minute of man is your goal give the aimpoint a shot without the magnifier and Mount it a little lower. If you can see it you'll be able to put a round on it and you'll be a bit faster since it'll most likely land closer to your natural point of aim. Worth a try and it's free to try while you wait on the vortex to come back.
449708


Here's my ballistics chart I use to get close on my dopes. It's worked out so far but I need to find a range to stretch it more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,567 Posts
I have noticed, that if you can in fact cowitness a peep through a red dot, it will improve problems with astigmatism, at least, it seems that way for me, much in the same way that bright light makes it less apparent because it forces your iris closed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
My only gripe with my lpvo set up is it's heavy. 11.5lbs without a mag or sling. Add an offset dot to that combination and youre at a 13lb+ rifle. So in an attempt at playing all angles, I realistically keep the red dot on it for all around use and the LPVO can be tossed on in less than 60 seconds if needed. So if weight is of no issue, or at least less of a concern I vote LPVO. It's kinda like cheating and you'll be making hits all day long at you're projected ranges. It will also bring down your overall height to something likely more comfortable and natural feeling for yourself.

Keep in mind, I'm a pain in the ass and am building my rifle to compete in 3 gun, so I'm like a triangle peg in a round hole. No matter what I do I'm compromising. For me a permenant solution doesn't exist for each of my problems without putting me into the open class, which would be competitive suicide since that's the "pro" class. So I just made a Swiss army knife to do good at all and great at none.

If minute of man is your goal give the aimpoint a shot without the magnifier and Mount it a little lower. If you can see it you'll be able to put a round on it and you'll be a bit faster since it'll most likely land closer to your natural point of aim. Worth a try and it's free to try while you wait on the vortex to come back. View attachment 449708

Here's my ballistics chart I use to get close on my dopes. It's worked out so far but I need to find a range to stretch it more.
Appreciate the ballistics chart. Definitely am inclined to pick up a lpvo (vortex strike eagle? Great reviews and I dont have to break the bank). Yea, have to comprise either which way I feel. Lpvo is heavy but you can reach out and touch someone at whatever distance, rd is solid and allows for faster acquisition but harder to shoot at distance. I'll try lowering it and playing around at the range. Maybe after I pick up a lpvo =)

Lol, love your anecdotes btw.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I have noticed, that if you can in fact cowitness a peep through a red dot, it will improve problems with astigmatism, at least, it seems that way for me, much in the same way that bright light makes it less apparent because it forces your iris closed.
Thanks for the heads up! No one ever suggested that. Maybe ill try that if I end up staying w the red dot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Appreciate the ballistics chart. Definitely am inclined to pick up a lpvo (vortex strike eagle? Great reviews and I dont have to break the bank). Yea, have to comprise either which way I feel. Lpvo is heavy but you can reach out and touch someone at whatever distance, rd is solid and allows for faster acquisition but harder to shoot at distance. I'll try lowering it and playing around at the range. Maybe after I pick up a lpvo =)

Lol, love your anecdotes btw.

I have to really say if you're on a budget definitely look at the primary arms stuff. The specs are close to the same but I feel the glass is better on the PA vs the Vortex in the budget lineup. Once you step into the $600 and up LPVO the Vortex quality walks away but my FFP Raptor 1-6 was sub 400 and is some really nice glass. The only way I see myself changing it is for more magnification. I can get you some pics down the tube if you're curious. It's not mounted up

As for weight, it's not terrible and honestly 11.5lbs is right in line with AR-10 builds so it's not like we're hauling around tugboats for rifles.

If you grab an LPVO, just pay mind to which end of the magnification they were oriented towards. Some are closer to 1x at the bottom and run like red dots much better than others. Others focused on the 6x side and have much better top end FOV, scope shadow and eye box mannerisms. Just something more to make you have to think lol.
 
1 - 20 of 49 Posts
Top