[C.R.]

The current issue of American Rifleman has a big write up on the SOCOM 16 by SA. They seem to like it. Col. Cooper also said the following about the rifle in his current commentaries.


" We note a nifty new production from Springfield Armory, which is essentially a modernized version of the redoubtable M14. If you have a private army, you should probably consider this. It fires a 308 cartridge and can be fitted with something resembling a scoutscope. At just under ten pounds it is quite heavy for its power, but it features a very efficient muzzle brake and an indestructible plastic stock. What we need is a designator for it, so I guess the term we will have to use will be "Socom 16." That is not really satisfactory, but that is what we will have to call it."

Anyone have one of these? I have shot the scout verion and was looking for a comparison.

 

[Chuck S]

American Rifleman has never met a rifle or pistol it didn't love.

My "Bush" M1A weighs within a fraction of an once of my standard M1A with all USGI parts, so there's no weight savings.

7.62mm NATO as a combat rifle round appeals to many folks who ignore terminal ballistics and who don't have to carry the rifle and ammo :roll: .

-- Chuck

 

[C.R.]

I agree that gun rags write way more positive than negative. I just thought it was cool to see an article on a M1A rifle. I am interested in the short SA just simply for manuverability in and around buildings/vehicles. I like the .308 as a combat rifle round. YES, it is heavy and 210 rounds in a combat pack are a [email protected]%*H to carry. However, I like it and would rather have the .308 than the .223. I shot several of the DSA short carbines and a SA scout, so until I can get my hands on a SOCOM 16 I wanted a some input from those that have shot one or owned one.

 

[ashooter]

7.62mm NATO as a combat rifle round appeals to many folks who ignore terminal ballistics and who don't have to carry the rifle and ammo :roll: .

-- Chuck

Hey Chuck - Doubtless we all know the "politics" behind the adoption of the 7.62NATO over the Brits' 6.5mm way back when. And it looks like there is a good chance that the XM-8 will end up being standardized in the new 6.8mm, which is doubtless about what we should have done in the first place.

BUT, the military standard today is "controlled pairs" of 5.56 delivered at center mass of whatever you can see of the enemy... I can tell you that one round of 7.62NATO will do everything and more than any double-tap of 5.56 will. AND it will do it through walls, trees, vehicle doors etc. Supposedly the new 6.8 will, too... but there ain't a "controlled pair" of 5.56NATO yet that will equal one round of 7.62 in all-purpose performance.

The only real advantages that the 5.56 has is the weapon can be so much lighter, shorter and easier to manipulate in a cqb environment. And 5.56 is a much better urban cqb round where overpenetration is a concern - like for police or civilian self-defense. But there just is no way it's a better general-purpose military round.

Also - weigh out a combat load of a dozen loaded 30rd m4 mags next to eight m14 mags. Then do the math - 28rds in the m4 mags gives you 168 "double taps". 20rds in the m14 mags gives you 160 single shots. Now compare the weight vs the (double) effective range vs the ability to defeat "cover" vs the higher maintenance requirements for the m4/m16 and it really all depends on the mission whether one truly beats out the other.

...I know this is a tired old argument, but I just can't stand it when someone says the 7.62 is just flat "obsolete" as a military round. It might be if/when the 6.8 proves itself, but it isn't yet.

AShooter

 

[Different]

Apparently, the M14 (and SR-25) has a place in combat today. The link includes a personal opinion After Action Report from a U S Army 19th Special Forces Group armorer who is finishing his tour in Afghanistan. I know this individual personally so I can vouch for his credibility. The thread is long but worthwhile IMO.

http://p198.ezboard.com/fzionscampfrm1.showMessage?topicID=1909.topic

From the link above:

"Man, everyone has dug up their old M-14's. The Rangers, 25th ID, 10th MTN, even the Marines had a bunch. Word got out quick that they were needed. The Marines had Leatherwood scopes on theirs so that tells you where those probably came from....."

 

[WAPD-191]

SOCOM 16

I have recently upgraded from a Bushmaster AR15 to the Springfield SOCOM 16. I use this weapon daily on duty in law enforcement. I had great success with the Bushy and my previous Colt AR15. I made the change bedause of the undeniable stopping power of the .308 round.

My initial purchase ($1,486.12) was a bit much for my taste, but I understand not a bad price.

I have experienced nothing but complete satisfaction from this rifle.

It is very handy and easy to manuever getting out of the vehicle in a hurry. Utilizing a tactical style sling I am able to transition to handgun or hands on depending on the situation. I notice a moderate increase in recoil from the .223, with little to no muzzle rise.

I definetly enjoy the tritium front sight post, and I have observed that the rifle has a natural pointablity.

The accuracy has been impressive with 100 meter groups under 2 inches from law enforcement shooting positions. I am sure that the rifle is more accurate than I can shoot.

I have experimented with ammunition from Black Hills, Federal, Hornady, Corbon and Remington. I have observed the best groups from the Hornady 168 gr TAP and the Black Hills 168 gr Match. I have yet to have any type of malfunction. I have accounted for 500 rounds through the rifle as of this date.

I am considering a see through type mount and an AimPoint red dot sight.

Thanks for the interest.

Be safe, come home every day.

Rich 8)

 

[Yamabushi]

WAPD-191, thanks for the report on the SOCOM. Have you fired indoors by any chance? I'm wondering if the muzzle brake in combo with the short barrel increases the blast beyond safe levels when fired indoors. Is this a concern?

 

[WAPD-191]

Muzzle Flash / Indoor Experience

Yamabushi,

Thanks for the reply.

I have shot indoors a couple of times, once inside a middle school during a recent SWAT training. Using standard military blanks, there was a fairly impressive muzzle flash and equally impressive show from the porting on the muzzle brake. Still, I did not have any question about using indoors. The flash was not perceivable larger than that of the short barreled non-suppressed MP-5 shooting in the same environment. Using standard factory rounds, I did not perceive any handicap from the flash and was able to maintain a good sight picture for follow up shots. Our team has restrictions on using non suppressed weapons on clandestine laboratory entry from the perspective of the explosive gasses in the environment.

Thanks again.

Be Safe, Go home every day.

Rich 8)

 

[LAWCOP]

I ALREADY have a M21T, a rack standard(which I used for the postal match and sent in target today) and an original M1A A1 "guerrilla gun" with the folder stock.

I fired one of the Socom 16s a few weeks ago and I was thinking about HOW NEAT one would be in a GOOD side folder once the AWB expires. Talk about handy......
I don't know if I will pop the BIG BUCKS or not, BUT ...maybe if someone comes out with a slick folder for it, like the H&K PDW stock, will be sorely tempted.

My experieince with the Socom was it fired everything I ran through it. Seemed to be hitting what I was aiming at and wasn't that offensive in the noise department, though at night I understand the flash IS impressive.
If I got one would probably put a scout mount on it if it would work and set up a nice 2X EER with thick hairs on it. VERY FAST.

Have to wait and see.

 

[TEA]

I don't know if I will pop the BIG BUCKS or not, BUT ...maybe if someone comes out

On a side note, did anyone else see the Mail Call marathon last week and the episode with the SEALs? If so, did you notice the interesting stock on the M14 that the Gunny was checking out when the SEAL Chief was showing him their weapons? Looked like a USGI synthetic that someone had added a pistol grip and H&K style sliding stock to, and also had a Knigts Armament handguard with the rails. Looks like what you'd be interested in.

 

[scottinhawaii]

I don't know if I will pop the BIG BUCKS or not, BUT ...maybe if someone comes out

On a side note, did anyone else see the Mail Call marathon last week and the episode with the SEALs? If so, did you notice the interesting stock on the M14 that the Gunny was checking out when the SEAL Chief was showing him their weapons? Looked like a USGI synthetic that someone had added a pistol grip and H&K style sliding stock to, and also had a Knigts Armament handguard with the rails. Looks like what you'd be interested in.

I'm almost positive that is the Troy Industries Sopmod M14.

www.troyind.com

 

[WAPD-191]

Scout Rail

LAWCOP,

The SOCOM comes with a Scout Rail standard. I agree that some sort of collapsible stock would make it even handier, but also even more expensive...

Be safe, Come home every day.

Rich 8)

 

[Chuck S]

Ashooter --

You'll "tell me" based on what direct experience with these cartridges? 8) I have "a bit" and will take 5.56mm over 7.62mm any day round for round not merely pound for pound.

RTLW,

-- Chuck

 

[PapaFoxtrot]

My impressions from a while ago.....

http://www.m-14forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5876&highlight=socom&sid=d9d7d82b2c0b86c5bf45327164662a69

 

[LAWCOP]

Ashooter --

You'll "tell me" based on what direct experience with these cartridges? 8) I have "a bit" and will take 5.56mm over 7.62mm any day round for round not merely pound for pound.

RTLW,

-- Chuck

DON'T know who this was directed at Chuck, but I have shot LOTS of "mammals" in my life and one of the FIRST and most important aspect of any round unless you get up to the REALLY BIG is shot placement. No question, a 7.62 in the finger will not have the effect of a 5.56 between the eyes.
HOWEVER, in all MY experience, with all things being equal, BIGGER bullets have always been better then SMALLER bullets.

I never happened to me, but several of the folks I worked with had complained about hitting people several times with the 5.56 and not seeing the effect they desired...like instant incapacitation and death. Others thought it was a magic bullet that killed like SHIVA.

I go back to bullet placement AND when both rounds hit the same spot, in my experience, bigger just works better.

In my years of LE I know I have responded to and worked well over 1000 shootings, and if I kept really good track it was probably over 2000, but they kind of run together after a while.
Have seen people shot with just about every normal rifle caliber and EVERY round you can stick in a handgun. Have seen folks hit with everything from number 9 birdshot to slugs and buck.(being a ghetto police officer is a WONDERFUL experience) I was also in the position to have a really good look at the shooting situations without the distractions of combat.

THe long and short is the more weight you throw the better it works, the bigger the diameter the better it works.

When discussions go to "what handgun caliber is best" ...my response is "the reason I carry a .45 is because they don't make a .46"
I have seen REALLY pizzed off people who have been shot with .38, 357s 9mms storming about a house because someone shot him and what he was going to do to him in revenge. I had one guy who was shot 4 times in the chest with a 9mm, who I had to forcibley make sit down because he was bleeding out and I didn't want him dying on me. (hardball ammo no major bones or organs hit although he was bubbling from a lung nick)
I have never seen anyone up and walking around when hit with a caliber beginning with .4 They are not a magic death wand, the people mostly live, but they just have all the fight taken out of them.

No matter what the caliber though, NOTHING beats proper shot placement.

 

[Yamabushi]

LAWCOP, thanks for the perspective. Very interesting stuff. What you say makes plenty of sense. The FBI agrees

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

This study refers to handguns, but I don't think it's completely irrelevant to this discussion. Bigger is better, especially if you're dealing with cover, body armor, vehicles, etc., i.e., all the stuff you'll find on the modern battlefield / urban slum.

I also see a parallel with what this FBI study says about expansion of HP rounds and the tumbling/fragmentation of .223 rounds. Yes, it's nice when it happens, but you shouldn't count on it. This seems especially true when using the short-barreled M4.

But you're right, shot placement is number one, so no matter what you shoot, you should shoot it well. I remember seeing a Cops episode in which a guy was shot in the chest with a .22 pistol. Took a couple steps, fell down, and died right there. A well-placed shot obviously.

On the other hand, I went to college with a guy who shot himself in the head with a shotgun. Blew off most of his lower face, but he survived (he ain't pretty, though).

Shot placement and caliber are important, but Lady Luck seems to play a big role, too.

WAPD-191, thanks for the reply. I had visions of guys with bleeding eardrums after shooting the SOCOM indoors. Never thought about meth lab fumes, though 8O. Nasty stuff!

 

[Webster82]

The Real Facts

Good Morning Peps,

I have a ton of experience with the M14/M1A/SOCOM16. I served in the US Navy as a shipboard sniper with the M14 and loved it. I tried to do everything I could to battle test it and destroy it. But it held up. My love for this rifle was not always true. At first I hated it. You couldn't move tactically, the weight was terrible, and all the ammo just weighed you down. However, when I went through my modified school, I began to love it. Especially since I had the distinct opportunity of seeing the carnage and devastation the M14 had against the Remington 700 and a supped up M16. The M16/AR platform has many flaws with it as well. The major 2 are overheating (causing a cookoff) and jams. Although they are less frequent, the do jam much more than the M1A. I was in the sand box (Iraq) and had ZERO issues with my M14. The LCAC unit that I was with (ACU5) had quite a few jams. The maintenance on the M14 is very minimal as well. In fact, the M16 requires so much maintenance in order to keep proficient with whatever is demanded from it.

The ballistics and transfer of energy from the 7.62x51 is amazing. Don't get me wrong. Many of the 5.56 round can do a good job as well, but cannot compete against the 7.62. The range, accuracy, and lethality of the 7.62 is above and beyond the 5.56. The only other rounds that I would consider is better is the .338 Lapua and the .50 cal. The 7.62 will go through almost anything as well, where the 5.56 is designed to try to stay in the body (most of the time).

Sound wise, the 7.62 is always a loud round. There is no arguing this fact. The larger you go, the louder it gets. However, if you spend the extra money for a threaded barrel and a suppressor, you can muffle a great deal of the noise. If you are concerned about noise, this is the way to go. I suggest getting a Good Iron SOCOM 16 kit from Smith Enterprise ($225) and a suppressor from Surefire (FA762K). And the only time I have seen someone bleeding from the ears after firing the M1A is when they were wearing their ear pro's incorrectly OR didn't wear anything at all.

And here comes my main point. I recently bought a SOCOM 16 for a great price and love it. The shortened barrel gives me the ability to move more and weigh less. I don't mind the weight anymore and prefer it when I am firing the weapon. This gives me a better chance to stay on target and continue whatever carnage I need. I think that I might have liked the SCOUT version better because of the extra barrel length, giving me a greater distance for shooting. Whatever way you go, you can't go wrong with the M1A arsenal.

 

[Powerkicker]

I like the full size rifle in a traditional stock because it makes a better club and a better spear. To me the socom is an AK equivalent with nice sights and a short magazine...for four times the cost.

 

[geepee3]

Anyone have one of these? I have shot the scout verion and was looking for a comparison.

I own a Socom 16 and love it. I do not shoot long distances(past 300yrds) so it is fine for my intended use. Some things you need to know about the Socom rifles. They have a proprietary gas lock/muzzle brake.(All one piece) And taller SX front sight and large diameter rear sight aperture. If you think you will need a rifle for longer distance shooting, the Scout version may be a better choice. If you can, take a Socom for a test drive. You will be glad you did.

Glenn

 

[lawnchair 04]

Holy dead thread revival, this thing started in 2004!! Nevertheless the socom is pretty badass for its intended purpose