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Bear with me here...

While reading hodgex's post I had a vision: I am always frustrated with the intrinsic visual limitations of a pic rail when it comes to optic height/iron sight interference. What popped into my head just now was a vision of a pic rail that didn't have a "valley" down the middle- it basically had no middle. Picture cutting the middle 1/3 out of a pic rail, then cut that 1/3 piece in half. Now "weld" the two cut pieces perpendicular (90 degrees) to the two outside edges of the remaining pic rail pieces. This would create a "square-edged" pic rail attachment surface with nothing in the middle to block the "see-thru" capability. A thin, flat piece could be attached along the full length bottom of the rail for structural rigidity. If I was able to attach a drawing of my idea I would- but I don't have that capability.

Am I making any sense at all here? Basically, I'm picturing a pic rail that has "slots" that run along both the vertical and horizontal edges, but is basically empty down the center (the thin bottom rail creates a square "U" shape that gives rigidity and allows mounting). I envisage a design like this would allow optics (basically red dots) to be designed to sit extremely low- possibly having their electronics sit to the sides of the unit instead of below it. And I imagine that "square-edge" slot attachment would be very secure. Whatever is attached to the top of the rail completes the "box", and thru that box the iron sights are visible.

Just having an ideaquake here... thanks for bearing with me.
 

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And if he doesn't want it, I'll certainly help free you up from it. You know, so you can focus on other new accessories/parts. :cool:

That delta 14 looks good in FDE. Did you do the paint?
For sure, though I have to say I won't be getting new parts lol! This thing has all I need/want just needs some refinement. And the paint was that basic krylon flat tan. Holds up decently too. I LOVED the walnut stock. But I do plan on running 3 gun at some point so dumping it into a barrel or onto a table wouldn't do it much good, so the blackfeather takes care of that.

Bear with me here...

While reading hodgex's post I had a vision: I am always frustrated with he intrinsic visual limitations of a pic rail when it comes to optic height/iron sight interference. What popped into my head just now was a vision of a pic rail that didn't have a "valley" down the middle- it basically had no middle. Picture cutting the middle 1/3 out of a pic rail, then cut that 1/3 piece in half. Now "weld" the two cut pieces perpendicular (90 degrees) to the two outside edges of the remaining pic rail pieces. This would create a "square-edged" pic rail attachment surface with nothing in the middle to block the "see-thru" capability. A thin, flat piece could be attached along the full length bottom of the rail for structural rigidity. If I was able to attach a drawing of my idea I would- but I don't have that capability.

Am I making any sense at all here? Basically, I'm picturing a pic rail that has "slots" that run along both the vertical and horizontal edges, but is basically empty down the center (the thin bottom rail creates a square "U" shape that gives rigidity and allows mounting). I envisage a design like this would allow optics (basically red dots) to be designed to sit extremely low- possibly having their electronics sit to the sides of the unit instead of below it. And I imagine that "square-edge" slot attachment would be very secure. Whatever is attached to the top of the rail completes the "box", and thru that box the iron sights are visible.

Just having an ideaquake here... thanks for bearing with me.
What you're describing is how I believe the Sadlak and arms 18 mounts are designed, essentially a dovetail to look down. I need to double check this but im pretty sure ......
 

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I put together a Sage Socom 16 with the correct USN see thru Badger rings and a LPVO. Weighs 12 lbs flat. The optic is fairly hefty for it's power but you don't want cheap glass or poor eye relief.

I used a Fulton Armory pic rail insert to replace the stripper clip guide. Use locktite. Mine hasn't come loose yet and it's been a few years. If it does come loose, I will use a tack weld. Just one tack and don't overheat anything.

I've used in some local 3 gun matches an If I had to carry it all day, I'd appreciate an AR and their lighter ammo a lot more.

The black feather stock/chassis looks interesting to save a few pounds. I will have to read up on them



Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk
 

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While we are entertaining different ideas, what about the old school Vietnam m14 sniper side scope setup? Easy way to keep the irons usable. I wouldn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole, but it’s an option. View attachment 455199
This set-up work work great for me- but only on a left-hand rifle (I'm right-handed, and right-eye dominant).
 

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I also have the R E D Neck Yankee Scope mount. Think Basset Mount when it comes to the way it mounts to reciever. Rock solid setup for an easy on and off option. Old picture below but you can use the irons no problem.
455200


I put together a Sage Socom 16 with the correct USN see thru Badger rings and a LPVO. Weighs 12 lbs flat. The optic is fairly hefty for it's power but you don't want cheap glass or poor eye relief.

I used a Fulton Armory pic rail insert to replace the stripper clip guide. Use locktite. Mine hasn't come loose yet and it's been a few years. If it does come loose, I will use a tack weld. Just one tack and don't overheat anything.

I've used in some local 3 gun matches an If I had to carry it all day, I'd appreciate an AR and their lighter ammo a lot more.

The black feather stock/chassis looks interesting to save a few pounds. I will have to read up on them



Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk
So ill be honest if you're sitting at 12lbs with an optic you're not gonna save much if any weight going to the blackfeather. My socom weighs 11lbs 5ozs with my magnifier dot combo and within a few ounces of that with my LPVO. Depending if you went with one of the lighter stock setups you could for sure save some weight but then it becomes very front heavy imo and feels unbalanced in the hand. Strictly for weight you wont gain much. But the profile is for sure slim, almost the same as my old synthetic stock. If you check my progress/build I have the weights in as many combos as I have on hand listed out.
 

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Just a data point...

In weighing your criteria of weight and length, consider that the M1a platform is inherently at a disadvantage compared to an AR-15 style system, not just in weight, but in the length, as the action/barrel is farther forward. Even with a rifle length fixed stock, an AR-15 with an 18" barrel is going to be about the same length as a SOCOM-16. If you compare the length of an AR-15 with a 16" barrel and a collapsed stock, it becomes absolutely ridiculous. That's not to dissuade the selection of a SOCOM, but just to point out that when making the decisions that affect length, and how that impact handling, it's always going to be a limousine in a parking garage, so maybe understanding that, even practicing getting in and out of the car with it, might be a good idea.

Now, if you get into a folding stock, then you're getting somewhere shorter. :)
 

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Just a data point...

In weighing your criteria of weight and length, consider that the M1a platform is inherently at a disadvantage compared to an AR-15 style system, not just in weight, but in the length, as the action/barrel is farther forward. Even with a rifle length fixed stock, an AR-15 with an 18" barrel is going to be about the same length as a SOCOM-16. If you compare the length of an AR-15 with a 16" barrel and a collapsed stock, it becomes absolutely ridiculous. That's not to dissuade the selection of a SOCOM, but just to point out that when making the decisions that affect length, and how that impact handling, it's always going to be a limousine in a parking garage, so maybe understanding that, even practicing getting in and out of the car with it, might be a good idea.

Now, if you get into a folding stock, then you're getting somewhere shorter. :)
Just shoot through the glass! Who needs ear drums or Windows in a vehicle anyway. If I'm in a vehicle, with my m1a ready to roll, all rules and logic have been removed from society anyway so I stand by this reply! Those of you who can legally carry "truck guns" can boo hiss off! Lol
 

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455363


Here is my SHTF/ All around rifle.
I went with the GG&G Scout Mount rail and Scout Mount for the Sig Tango 6 w/ Shield RMS offset.
If I need Irons because the optics are out, I will yank off the stock riser and let it drop… it’s been dummy corded since this photo (Also has an SEI/ Trijicon front sight now..) It has a Holosun RDO on a low mount that is the same reticle height as the scope, if being used in a built up area.
Also to lighten it up on the front end, the Magpul bipod is Qd on the rail. bipod and Holosun usually ride in the cleaning kit/ spares pouch in easy reach on my daypack when not in use…
Still a work in progress, but with this set up, it’s only 10.8lbs empty/ 9.4 with Holosun and no bipod.
If I ever get drawn for deer in AZ again, I plan to hunt with it… with a custom 2 point sling it‘s not bad for all day carry.
 

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View attachment 455363

Here is my SHTF/ All around rifle.
I went with the GG&G Scout Mount rail and Scout Mount for the Sig Tango 6 w/ Shield RMS offset.
If I need Irons because the optics are out, I will yank off the stock riser and let it drop… it’s been dummy corded since this photo (Also has an SEI/ Trijicon front sight now..) It has a Holosun RDO on a low mount that is the same reticle height as the scope, if being used in a built up area.
Also to lighten it up on the front end, the Magpul bipod is Qd on the rail. bipod and Holosun usually ride in the cleaning kit/ spares pouch in easy reach on my daypack when not in use…
Still a work in progress, but with this set up, it’s only 10.8lbs empty/ 9.4 with Holosun and no bipod.
If I ever get drawn for deer in AZ again, I plan to hunt with it… with a custom 2 point sling it‘s not bad for all day carry.
That's a tight setup- what stock is that?
 

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Archangel AACQBS.
I‘m not yet sure about longevity of the stock yet, and the bottom of the front end of the stock is a bit wide, the gun shoots better than with the Springfield Mossy Oak stock it came in.
I’ve added a Sadlak extended mag release, SEI built trigger group, SEI extended bolt release, piston and Socom plug. Plus the light is an old delrin TACM III with a custom switch and LED lamp, so it’s pretty light as well.
 

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SHTF means different things to different people. Looking at some of the rifles shown in this thread, I assume it means hunting squirrels at night, from a comfortable position.

Look at some actual SHTF events... The waist deep water of Katrina, the forest fires of the Northwest. Earthquakes create rubble. Riots cause up close and personal defense.

You don't need a scope, except for hunting small game, if it comes to that. A quick detachable 2x, kept in your ruck, is all you need. Same goes for a bipod. Learn how to shoot without one. Try diddily bopping thru the bush with one. It snags on everything. Cheap ones will break when going prone.

Learn how to use iron sights quickly and effectively. You will only have a split second to snap off a shot. If using a 1x RDS, make sure it also has a reticle. Anything electric will fail when you need it. A tritium front post is a plus. Skip the hooded rear, use an standard aperture. Lock the adjustment knobs.

Your stock needs to be strong enough to bust off a door handle, break double pane glass and hold you up when you need a crutch or ladder.

Tacticool slings look neat, but a simple dummy cord will serve you better when you have been awake for 72 hours.

Some sort of low profile rail comes in handy if you need to attach something for a particular issue. The Ultimak and ARMS 18 are sturdy and trim.
 

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Of course, SHTF features differ greatly for those of us lucky enough to be wheelchair bound.
 

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Call me old fashioned, but if i’m trying to bag a squirrel at night I’d go figure 4 trap and save the bullets.
In my SHTF scenario, once I get home, the squirrels are the first on my list, along with rats if I can find the [email protected][email protected]$.

Fresh food packets that don't require refrigeration.

But I'd probably opt for my daughter's pellet rifle in the day time, because they're better, I would guess, if there's something left.

Unless they're terrorist squirrels. In that case, a cloud of mist is just fine.

I think Kurt makes a compelling argument for the value of a very simple rifle that doubles as a club, emphasizing reliability and simplicity to an extreme.

In my projected hypothetical SHTF case, though, by the time any of my M14 types become both the tool of choice, for things like barrier penetration, or prioritizing knock down with minimal chance of returning or communicating to others, ever, I am probably already home.

I don't want to leave any of them unattended in a vehicle because among some of the places I park, my car has been broken into and emptied (I'd like to think I might avoid that in the future by being just a little more paranoid, but I wouldn't count on it, because you can't count on people not sucking)...

If I'm just trying to get home, I'm going to be in my car until it has to be abandoned and I'm walking the rest of the way, in which case a beater SKS with a folding bayonet advertising 'prickly' is a more plausible companion, though a broken down cheapie AR would prove superior in stowage portability.

Regardless, in the entirety of it, if it comes to fighting my way back home, if it came to it, I'd do what I could, but my best chance at success, I think, is to make every effort to maximize my chance at avoiding conflict, and look like I'm surely not worth the trouble, just some dude in a beater car with nothing useful. And my best chance at that, I think , is to hopefully recognize it coming and stay out of potential areas of first explosion, and stay out of them, so I can enjoy my hot cocoa and the Internet, while it lasts. :)
 

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It is interesting what people imagine as a SHTF scenario. I picture more urban environments than being in the brush. I think I’ll start with this lady I saw looking into my kitchen this morning, though. Squirrels come next. View attachment 455557
Nice view. I think for most people it would be more urban environments. I live in one of the last brush/tree patches that is near and surrounded by the zombies, which is nice, except that sometimes the zombies decide to go foraging outside of the quarantine zone.

We're far enough away that it's difficult to casually end up in here, and between the neighbors, it's not a place where you'd think you'd need to lock your doors, but it has happened. Recently we got a call from a neighbor who was 40 minutes away telling us that her son was home alone and they were being robbed. We live in as close to the sticks as you can probably imagine, and it's hard for people who should be visiting to find their way in, even with GPS, without an escort. Fortunately there was no violence required, but some nut job from over a hundred miles away (according to the sheriff's department later anyway) claimed to have gotten in an Uber and wound up there, incidentally deciding to walk into somebody's house and stuffing things into her two handbags.

That's not a scenario I would have imagined, but I guess that's a point to consider, that things you wouldn't even imagine can happen. What was also interesting is that despite the publicity of police not being able to resist any opportunity to blow away any person of color, I am in that demographic, and when the first officer rolled up, I was holding a rifle in the process of encouraging this person to let the deputies help her out, and while I am sure he saw me, he was also informed of the situation, and didn't even bother addressing me until she was in handcuffs in the car, and then politely asked that my wife and I 'secure our weapons', which he explained meant taking them back home, before giving statements, if only to not provide distractions for the deputies that would soon follow.

After the business of giving statements, they were all really friendly, and we chit chatted about the recent wildfire, their experience with it, how it had affected the local community, yada yada, really pleasant people I'd sure not mind having over for a BBQ. My wife later realized that one of the deputies had been a guy who, during the period following the first burning when she was scouting around looking for flare ups that would have loved to taken a second helping of newly fallen debris and dead wood killed the first round, helped her call in a fire crew to a particular location where a smoldering stump relit a patch of ground by a clever use of a photo and GPS, as before she was having trouble relating the location in a way that the fire dispatch could understand, which is complicated because lots of people call in, many of them are confused, and when you've got multiple fires going, it's easy to think that somebody reporting one is actually reporting another. Which I guess illustrates another point. Sometimes, in certain scenarios, the best survival tool may simply be communication capabilities, both technologically, but also being able to approach and deal with people who can help you.

Apart from the crazy lady who decided to do some unauthorized shopping in banjo country, we had a very Mayberry experience.
 

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This is the environment I live in. A nice urban neighborhood. This is why I prioritized my m1a the way I did. A weapon light that's easily mounted, a red dot and a 3x. All force multipliers that give me some advantage. Every single house in my area is old, brick and mortar with lathe and plaster, even .308 isn't enough. With this noted Yes we had a BLM March through our "priveleged" area. Yes it was peaceful. This time. But all it takes is one. For me I'm 5 mins on a normal day to get to the farm country....max......BUT....this would be a nightmare to get out of if things were to degrade rapidly. Everything is a compromise, heck my jeep in the photo is always 3/4 tank minimum and is the vehicle i would take and is ready to go. Even though it has a 250mile range, it's way more robust and easily repaired than my 2016 pickup. Compromise is the key word in everything. My LPVO lives in an easy to access location as does my necessities, everything else is fluff. I'd like to think I can see turmoil coming long before things get to SHTF and make a calculated decision to get out of this location long before I needed to fight my way out, with a fiance, 2 vehicles and 4 animals that's a no win situation. The thought of having to force my way out 5-6 blocks minimum in any direction is humbling.
 

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I live in a suburb of one of the four largest cities in my state. One of the things I like about about my neighborhood is how it's located strategically. We're on a peninsula- with wide water crossings on three sides. There's a bridge at the north, a bridge to the west, and a narrow/undeveloped land area to the south adjacent to a US military base (providing air and rail access).. We have a grocery store, gas station, fire station, school, banking, a big-box store and a lumber yard all situated immediately on a secondary US highway.

The entire neighborhood can be defended by blocking the bridge to the north, the bridge to the west, and the unpopulated/narrow access at the military base along the highway at the southern approach. Security from a water approach can be handled by the residents living on the water- there are no "unoccupied/blind" areas along the river perimeter.

I've always been pleased with my neighborhood's intrinsic defensibility, but after becoming paraplegic- I really appreciate the the opportunity it affords me of making a stand where I am. With rational preparation, our neighborhood should be able to "hold out" for quite a while.

But just sharing this makes me think it would be smart to contact my neighbors to discuss formalizing an official plan for the organized armed defense of our neighborhood. I might need to get on that ASAP...
 
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