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So is this good or bad for Montana...

5937 Views 28 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  Fool Otto
Another TV series glamorizing a region and bringing in outsiders.
I remember what A River Runs Trough It did to Montana 25 years ago. The fishing has never been the same.

"Yellowstone" TV series. Kevin Costner

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California housing crisis affecting middle class the most: It's 'a broken system'
By William Lajeunesse

Published December 14, 2017
FoxNews.com
For all of its claims of being an economic paradise, California is a failure when it comes to housing.

Not just low-income, affordable housing, but middle-income, working-class housing for teachers, firemen and long-time residents hoping to live anywhere near work.

"California has a housing crisis. We can't provide housing to our citizens," said Rita Brandin, with San Diego developer Newland Communities. "In Georgia, Texas and Florida, it can take a year and a half from concept to permits. In California, just the process from concept to approvals, is five years — that does not include the environmental lawsuits faced by 90 percent of projects."

Numbers tell the story of California's housing crisis.

* 75 percent of Southern Californians can't afford to buy a home, according to the state realtors association.

* 16 of the 25 least affordable communities in the US are in California, according to 24/7 Wall Street.

* Officials this year declared a homeless emergency in San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego and Orange counties.

* 56 percent of state voters say they may have to move because of a lack of affordable housing. One in four say they will relocate out of state, according to University of California Berkeley's Institute of Governmental Studies.

* A median price home in the Golden State is $561,000, according to the realtors association. A household would need to earn $115,000 a year to reasonably afford a home at that price, assuming a 20 percent down payment. Yet, two thirds of Californians earns less $80,000, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

* The household income needed to afford a median-priced home in the Silicon Valley town of Palo Alto is $450,000.

* In San Francisco, a median priced home is $1.5 million, according to the Paragon Real Estate Group.

* Home prices in California are twice the national average, and 70 percent can't afford to buy a home, according to state figures.

* Median household income in L.A. is $64,000. That's half what is necessary to buy a home.

*1 in 10 residents are considering leaving because they can't afford a place to live, according to a state legislative study, while US Census figures show 2 million residents, 25 and older, have already left the state since 2010.

* In 2016, 30 percent of California tenants put more than 50 percent of their income toward rent and utilities, according to the California Budget & Policy Center. Economists consider 30 percent the limit.

* California needs to double the number of homes built each year to keep prices from rising faster than the national average, according to the Legislative Analyst's Office.

"The biggest tragedy of California is we have stopped building houses for the middle class," said Borre Winkle with the Building Industry Association of San Diego. "Think of California's housing market as a martini class. We're building some affordable housing at the low end. Absolutely nothing in the middle and the top end is high-income housing, which subsidizes low-income housing. So that is a broken system."

In 2016, the cities of Houston and Dallas built more homes, 63,000, than the entire Golden State, which built 50,000, according to US Census Bureau figures.

"Supply and demands works," said USC real estate professor Richard Green. "People want to be here and we're not accommodating them with new housing and so the cost of the housing goes up."

A view of Candy Spelling's 57,000 square foot mansion is seen in this undated still image taken from video. The mansion, featuring 123 rooms, has been sold to 22-year-old British heiress Petra Ecclestone, according to published reports on June 14, 2011. The home, in the Holmby Hills section of Los Angeles, was the highest priced piece of real estate in the U.S., listed for $150 million. The final selling price for the estate, on the market since March 2009, has not been disclosed. REUTERS/Reuters TV (UNITED STATES - Tags: ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS) FOR EDITORIAL USE ONLY. NOT FOR SALE FOR MARKETING OR ADVERTISING CAMPAIGNS. THIS IMAGE HAS BEEN SUPPLIED BY A THIRD PARTY. IT IS DISTRIBUTED, EXACTLY AS RECEIVED BY REUTERS, AS A SERVICE TO CLIENTS - GM1E76F0IFI01
"The biggest tragedy of California is we have stopped building houses for the middle class," said Borre Winkle with the Building Industry Association of San Diego. "Think of California's housing market as a martini class. We're building some affordable housing at the low end. Absolutely nothing in the middle and the top end is high-income housing, which subsidizes low-income housing. So that is a broken system." (REUTERS)

The lack of housing is a statewide problem for which many share the blame. Current residents adamantly oppose any new project because it will aggravate traffic, already the worst in the nation. Environmentalists oppose growth because most new projects require a lot of land, which they feel contributes to sprawl. They favor infill projects of higher density, just the sort existing residents oppose.

Politicians are caught in the middle. They know businesses needs a growing population to meet labor needs, but are afraid to vote for new housing for fear of being voted out of office.

"Our long-term growth and prosperity is absolutely and fundamentally dependent upon housing that folks can afford," said Elizabeth Hansburg, a young mother who started a “Yes in My Backyard,” or YIMBY chapter in Orange County. “If we want Orange County to be prosperous in the future, we have to have housing that people can afford to live in."

YIMBY members show up at city council and planning commission meetings and advocate for more housing. They counter the typical “Not in My Backyard” groups that typically kill projects by exerting political influence.

"I just thought to myself, there is no one providing a counter argument to this. All the elected officials are hearing is no we don't want this," Hansburg said. "And I thought we needed to balance that conversation in the public sphere. Somebody needed to be there saying: ‘Yes we do want this.’ We do have a housing shortage."

According to a study commissioned by the Building Industry Association at Point Loma Nazarene University, up to 40 percent of the cost of a new home is attributable to the 45 regulatory agencies that govern home building in California.

"California is a state that just absolutely loves regulations. And the problem of housing in California is one of regulatory overreach," Winkel said. "In San Diego, 40 cents on the dollar of production of housing goes to regulations alone. It's not uncommon to have $100,000 in impact fees on a single-family house and try to sell a house with that type of cost burden."

Automobile traffic backs-up as it travels north from San Diego to Los Angeles along Interstate Highway 5 in California December 10, 2013.
REUTERS/Mike Blake (UNITED STATES - Tags: TRANSPORT SOCIETY) - GM1E9CB0BFS01
California residents adamantly oppose any new building project because it will aggravate traffic, already the worst in the nation. (REUTERS)

The Newland Sierra project near San Diego is still trying to build a mixed-use community with 2,100 new units on a parcel of 1,900 acres. But builders say they are only developing 775 acres, leaving 61 percent open space.

Yet, environmentalists and local opposition are already threatening to sue, or gather signatures to take the project to a vote.

"NIMBYism has now become a tool for special interests to stop projects," Brandin said. "There's an anti-growth attitude that really creates this roadblock to providing homes and that is creating a disparity. We are leaving out our working class who have to commute hours, sometimes two hours beyond our borders, to work in our city."

A similar, albeit larger project in Los Angeles fought environmental lawsuits for 20 years.

"Very often these lawsuits are not won, but it extends the time it takes to do the development and in development time really is money," Green said. "The thing about environmental groups is they just don't trust developers, period. We're one of the fastest-growing states in the country when it comes to jobs and we're not building any housing. California has the second lowest rate of homeownership in the country. Only Hawaii is lower."

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/1...ting-middle-class-most-its-broken-system.html
Read an interesting statistic the other day: for the first time in state history, 1million MORE people left California than relocated there.
 

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California housing crisis affecting middle class the most: It's 'a broken system'
By William Lajeunesse

Published December 14, 2017
FoxNews.com
For all of its claims of being an economic paradise, California is a failure when it comes to housing.

Not just low-income, affordable housing, but middle-income, working-class housing for teachers, firemen and long-time residents hoping to live anywhere near work.

"California has a housing crisis. We can't provide housing to our citizens," said Rita Brandin, with San Diego developer Newland Communities. "In Georgia, Texas and Florida, it can take a year and a half from concept to permits. In California, just the process from concept to approvals, is five years – that does not include the environmental lawsuits faced by 90 percent of projects."

Numbers tell the story of California's housing crisis.

* 75 percent of Southern Californians can't afford to buy a home, according to the state realtors association.

* 16 of the 25 least affordable communities in the US are in California, according to 24/7 Wall Street.

* Officials this year declared a homeless emergency in San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego and Orange counties.

* 56 percent of state voters say they may have to move because of a lack of affordable housing. One in four say they will relocate out of state, according to University of California Berkeley's Institute of Governmental Studies.

* A median price home in the Golden State is $561,000, according to the realtors association. A household would need to earn $115,000 a year to reasonably afford a home at that price, assuming a 20 percent down payment. Yet, two thirds of Californians earns less $80,000, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

* The household income needed to afford a median-priced home in the Silicon Valley town of Palo Alto is $450,000.

* In San Francisco, a median priced home is $1.5 million, according to the Paragon Real Estate Group.

* Home prices in California are twice the national average, and 70 percent can't afford to buy a home, according to state figures.

* Median household income in L.A. is $64,000. That's half what is necessary to buy a home.

*1 in 10 residents are considering leaving because they can't afford a place to live, according to a state legislative study, while US Census figures show 2 million residents, 25 and older, have already left the state since 2010.

* In 2016, 30 percent of California tenants put more than 50 percent of their income toward rent and utilities, according to the California Budget & Policy Center. Economists consider 30 percent the limit.

* California needs to double the number of homes built each year to keep prices from rising faster than the national average, according to the Legislative Analyst's Office.

"The biggest tragedy of California is we have stopped building houses for the middle class," said Borre Winkle with the Building Industry Association of San Diego. "Think of California's housing market as a martini class. We're building some affordable housing at the low end. Absolutely nothing in the middle and the top end is high-income housing, which subsidizes low-income housing. So that is a broken system."

In 2016, the cities of Houston and Dallas built more homes, 63,000, than the entire Golden State, which built 50,000, according to US Census Bureau figures.

"Supply and demands works," said USC real estate professor Richard Green. "People want to be here and we're not accommodating them with new housing and so the cost of the housing goes up."

A view of Candy Spelling's 57,000 square foot mansion is seen in this undated still image taken from video. The mansion, featuring 123 rooms, has been sold to 22-year-old British heiress Petra Ecclestone, according to published reports on June 14, 2011. The home, in the Holmby Hills section of Los Angeles, was the highest priced piece of real estate in the U.S., listed for $150 million. The final selling price for the estate, on the market since March 2009, has not been disclosed. REUTERS/Reuters TV (UNITED STATES - Tags: ENTERTAINMENT BUSINESS) FOR EDITORIAL USE ONLY. NOT FOR SALE FOR MARKETING OR ADVERTISING CAMPAIGNS. THIS IMAGE HAS BEEN SUPPLIED BY A THIRD PARTY. IT IS DISTRIBUTED, EXACTLY AS RECEIVED BY REUTERS, AS A SERVICE TO CLIENTS - GM1E76F0IFI01
"The biggest tragedy of California is we have stopped building houses for the middle class," said Borre Winkle with the Building Industry Association of San Diego. "Think of California's housing market as a martini class. We're building some affordable housing at the low end. Absolutely nothing in the middle and the top end is high-income housing, which subsidizes low-income housing. So that is a broken system." (REUTERS)

The lack of housing is a statewide problem for which many share the blame. Current residents adamantly oppose any new project because it will aggravate traffic, already the worst in the nation. Environmentalists oppose growth because most new projects require a lot of land, which they feel contributes to sprawl. They favor infill projects of higher density, just the sort existing residents oppose.

Politicians are caught in the middle. They know businesses needs a growing population to meet labor needs, but are afraid to vote for new housing for fear of being voted out of office.

"Our long-term growth and prosperity is absolutely and fundamentally dependent upon housing that folks can afford," said Elizabeth Hansburg, a young mother who started a “Yes in My Backyard,” or YIMBY chapter in Orange County. “If we want Orange County to be prosperous in the future, we have to have housing that people can afford to live in."

YIMBY members show up at city council and planning commission meetings and advocate for more housing. They counter the typical “Not in My Backyard” groups that typically kill projects by exerting political influence.

"I just thought to myself, there is no one providing a counter argument to this. All the elected officials are hearing is no we don't want this," Hansburg said. "And I thought we needed to balance that conversation in the public sphere. Somebody needed to be there saying: ‘Yes we do want this.’ We do have a housing shortage."

According to a study commissioned by the Building Industry Association at Point Loma Nazarene University, up to 40 percent of the cost of a new home is attributable to the 45 regulatory agencies that govern home building in California.

"California is a state that just absolutely loves regulations. And the problem of housing in California is one of regulatory overreach," Winkel said. "In San Diego, 40 cents on the dollar of production of housing goes to regulations alone. It's not uncommon to have $100,000 in impact fees on a single-family house and try to sell a house with that type of cost burden."

Automobile traffic backs-up as it travels north from San Diego to Los Angeles along Interstate Highway 5 in California December 10, 2013.
REUTERS/Mike Blake (UNITED STATES - Tags: TRANSPORT SOCIETY) - GM1E9CB0BFS01
California residents adamantly oppose any new building project because it will aggravate traffic, already the worst in the nation. (REUTERS)

The Newland Sierra project near San Diego is still trying to build a mixed-use community with 2,100 new units on a parcel of 1,900 acres. But builders say they are only developing 775 acres, leaving 61 percent open space.

Yet, environmentalists and local opposition are already threatening to sue, or gather signatures to take the project to a vote.

"NIMBYism has now become a tool for special interests to stop projects," Brandin said. "There's an anti-growth attitude that really creates this roadblock to providing homes and that is creating a disparity. We are leaving out our working class who have to commute hours, sometimes two hours beyond our borders, to work in our city."

A similar, albeit larger project in Los Angeles fought environmental lawsuits for 20 years.

"Very often these lawsuits are not won, but it extends the time it takes to do the development and in development time really is money," Green said. "The thing about environmental groups is they just don't trust developers, period. We're one of the fastest-growing states in the country when it comes to jobs and we're not building any housing. California has the second lowest rate of homeownership in the country. Only Hawaii is lower."

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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/1...ting-middle-class-most-its-broken-system.html
Yep, we all know this very well in the west.

Check out home prices in Denver and Bozeman. Your jaw will drop. Take one guess why they're so high....
 

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Well, I grew up in north Idaho. Coeur D'alene, post falls, priest river and standpoint. I left CDA when I enlisted in 1997. I was there during the Californian invasion. I saw properties go from 55k with a big house, massive shop and 5 acres to 200k for a house with no land.
When I got out of the army in 2011 I did not want to move home to CDA so we planned on Bozeman Montana. It was a quiet place. Its was beautiful and in the middle of nowhere. I love bozeman and my in-laws are still there. But I could not afford to live there. They raised the rent on my house from $1050 to 1450. Plus utilities were 400+ , water was 100 bucks. I got a good job making salary $2300....my wife got a job too. We had no bills except what I mentioned and car insurance. We could not afford it.

So with what money we had left I was forced to move back to north Idaho and I got a good job working for Idaho Forest Group and we bought 5 acres and a 3 bedroom 2 car garage house close to Cocolalla lake. I miss my neighbor but I dont miss north Idaho. Kootenai county is an agenda 21 county. Bonner county is still mostly free but wackos are working on that too. I moved to bend Oregon for 18 months and it was a very nice place but the invasion from Cali is also ruining that place too.
We have since moved to alaska for freedom. If I would have know what its like I would have moved here upon leaving the army. This place rocks. I drive for work and I can drive an hour and not see any lights from homes, cars, and see the stars. Low taxes except property taxes. Of moose everywhere. Cant wait to eat one next hunting season.

I feel free here unless when I am in anchorage. I do miss the land I grew up in but alaska is for me for now. My family has said Coeur D'alene is little LA and its true. I HATE driving through Coeur D'alene. I HATE IT. IN 1997 CDA population 14,500 people. 2017 45k. Post falls 1997 7000 people, 2017 almost 29000. There were space between CDA and Dalton gardens and also Dalton gardens and hayden. Its all one big city...

Its called progress I guess.
 

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Guess it kind of depends on a man's attitude when he relocates to Montana.

Wishing everyone a "MERRY CHRISTMAS"....

Hobo
Hobo - great post and I agree. I am not a MT resident but have visited they many, many times to see friends in the agriculture industry and Land Grant University...... being a southern farm boy with a southern accent I seem to be always be very welcome in the ag and farm community - truly a great place.....
 

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Southern.....

Hobo - great post and I agree. I am not a MT resident but have visited they many, many times to see friends in the agriculture industry and Land Grant University...... being a southern farm boy with a southern accent I seem to be always be very welcome in the ag and farm community - truly a great place.....
_________________

I too am "Southern"... I just completed a "Small Land Owner's Class" put on by the County. It was a world of information and priceless. Kind of like an orientation class for the Bitterroot Valley. Major topics here are water, fire and weed control. If a person has a grasp on these three things life is not too bad.... LOL

Photo is my Christmas present to myself....

Merry Christmas

Hobo
 

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The housing problem in CA is no joke. I moved for more than financial reasons, and wanted to escape the crowds and, more importantly, the ideology. The danger is people moving who want to spread their ideology and socialist utopia with cheaper rent (ie. your Boulder, CO / Austin, TX or even your CDA types). Tech companies keep building satellite offices in other lib hotbeds, drawing even more libs there, so it's a bad cycle. The guy who bought our house in CA - an old neighbor we talked to said it looks like they are just going to rent it out - probably for $4k+ a month (a small 900 sqft 2BR, 1BA townhouse). Thing is - it's a stone's throw from Apple campus, so they could charge whatever they want, I reckon. Completely unsustainable - crash and burn seems imminent.

Whenever anything comes up about where I'm from, I tell 'em "I'm from Texas..." (San Antonio). A lot of the libs in CA used to say "I don't like Texas, but Austin seems ok". I say 'Yeah... I hear that a lot out here... I reckon you all got that backwards'.

If CA enters the conversation up here, I tell people "I had a bit of a hiatus for work there... couldn't get out fast enough.". The wife is still less closed-lip than me about it, but then again, she's less ashamed to have had any ties to CA. I'm glad she had some ties to Idaho though, so it gave us a place to land. She wouldn't move to Texas to be around my folks.

At the end of the day, we can't change where we're from (I ain't really from 'anywhere', bein' a brat and all). I've seen good and bad people everywhere. We can only be responsible for what we do with our opportunities and seek life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness however we are able. Thing is - for many in CA and other lib states, in order to seek liberty (in the form most on this forum would envision it) they have no choice but to leave. In Montana and other states, one might be able to escape the city limits for now, but in CA, there is no choice but to leave the border, as many issues there are state-wide. You can't hunker down anymore in CA and keep to yourself, go to work, raise your family... since there is an all-out assault on people who don't fit the narrative there.
 
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