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I captain a veterans shooting team. We usually compete at 200 yards, open sights. Some of the members don't have the time to make the trek to the club with the longer ranges available so I take their M1A's or Ar15's and their ammo and sight the rifles in at 200yds using a really solid set of rifle rests.

The other day I got into a big disagreement with a Marine vet that taught marksmanship who said you can't sight someone elses rifle in for them.

My point was that, using a solid rest system, the rifle was shooting true and any error would be caused by the person who was shooting it afterwards.

In other words you don't adjust the rifle for a persons errors in shooting form, you make the shooter learn to shoot the rifle correctly.

I argued that if that was so then the person shooting the rifle would constantly be adjusting the sights depending on what poor shooting form he was using that day.

Of course wind and other factors might need some adjustment but at 200yds thats minimal.

We both could be right depending on what the situation was. Shooting competition or combat.

Any thoughts on this?
 

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^this. also to add on to that, zeroing on a rest is not how you should get any zero unless your shooting f class. if your hunting and shooting off of sticks then zero off of sticks. if youre shooting off of a bipod zero off a bipod. if you shoot competition, zero for each individual position on each individual yardline...
 

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When I was a DS; back in 70-72; we would be out on the zero range all day trying to get the trainees to zero their rifles.
If everybody was not different we could have saved time by having the DS's zero the rifles.

And another question is if the rifle is zeroed now; than we would not have to go back out next cycle, just issue the rifle to the next trainee ?????
 

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I captain a veterans shooting team. We usually compete at 200 yards, open sights. Some of the members don't have the time to make the trek to the club with the longer ranges available so I take their M1A's or Ar15's and their ammo and sight the rifles in at 200yds using a really solid set of rifle rests.

The other day I got into a big disagreement with a Marine vet that taught marksmanship who said you can't sight someone elses rifle in for them.

My point was that, using a solid rest system, the rifle was shooting true and any error would be caused by the person who was shooting it afterwards.

In other words you don't adjust the rifle for a persons errors in shooting form, you make the shooter learn to shoot the rifle correctly.

I argued that if that was so then the person shooting the rifle would constantly be adjusting the sights depending on what poor shooting form he was using that day.

Of course wind and other factors might need some adjustment but at 200yds thats minimal.

We both could be right depending on what the situation was. Shooting competition or combat.

Any thoughts on this?
From personal experience I can say that this is absolutely true. Several years ago I was shooting my supermatch in a DCM competition. My shooting partner's rifle went down so I let him use mine after my first leg. When shooting my next leg all my shots were low\left about 4". I asked him he had adjusted my sights. He sheepishly said "yes".

Okay, no big deal. That leg was 'shot'. I would just readjust my sights. I asked how many clicks he had adjusted my sights. He said he had no idea. Grrrrrr. I went back to my basic sight setting and carried on. I still remind him this whenever I see him.
 
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Person to person

It is not unusual when two or more people shoot the same rifle to have to make sight corrections, even if the rifle was zeroed off a machine rest.. It would be unusual if they used the same dope,, in most cases I have seen,, the corrections are small, one or two clicks, this was with the Match M14's..

If you have ever fired in a Team shoot, where two shooters are alternating shots at the same distance, when the Coach or Spotter makes a verbal correction both shooters put that correction on their rifles. Gheezz, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the question... Art
 

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I captain a veterans shooting team. We usually compete at 200 yards, open sights. Some of the members don't have the time to make the trek to the club with the longer ranges available so I take their M1A's or Ar15's and their ammo and sight the rifles in at 200yds using a really solid set of rifle rests.

The other day I got into a big disagreement with a Marine vet that taught marksmanship who said you can't sight someone elses rifle in for them.

My point was that, using a solid rest system, the rifle was shooting true and any error would be caused by the person who was shooting it afterwards.

In other words you don't adjust the rifle for a persons errors in shooting form, you make the shooter learn to shoot the rifle correctly.

I argued that if that was so then the person shooting the rifle would constantly be adjusting the sights depending on what poor shooting form he was using that day.

Of course wind and other factors might need some adjustment but at 200yds thats minimal.

We both could be right depending on what the situation was. Shooting competition or combat.

Any thoughts on this?
Yea the marine is right. If this were the case, there wouldn't be assigned rifles in the military, they all would be "zero'd" and you could take anyone off the rack and go to town. I know from personal experience this is not true. My unit tried to just hand out rifles once to go to the 300 meter range and give it our best shot, it was a waste of ammo. We couldn't sight in before hand, I couldn't hit a man sized target at 150 meters to save my life. I was shooting around 15" right and over 18" high at that distance as best the guy behind me could tell. 300 meters was a joke. So even for Minute of bad guy accuracy, it didn't work.

Also as a gaf, a buddy of mine decided to switch between his National Match M1a and my standard M1a rifles on a bench rest slow fire match held at the local range. 3 strings to the match, so we switched rifles for last string as we were in 1st and 2nd place. I was only 1 point behind so we figured what the heck. When using his NM, I shot about 1.5" low and 1" right compared to his dead center. We were grouping about the same, but my POI was low and right of his, both holding the same on the target.

Every time I got a newly assigned rifle, I would have to make some adjustments to it to get on zero for me. Granted those adjustments were sometimes very minor but sometimes not so much,either way they were done. Its not about teaching someone to shoot a rifle "correctly" its about the fact that everyone has different dimensions (face, head, body, etc.) and as a result, sit behind and hold the rifle differently. While these differences may be minor, they do make a difference especially at distance
 

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As a former sniper the marine is right. It would be nice if you could zero a weapon on a rest and anyone could shoot it but that just doesn't work.
I have found out that the zero I would do one day would be slightly off the next time I would shoot it. Maybe it is due to the changes in your body during the day or change in your eye site as the sun gets to you but the morning zero would be slightly off compared to the morning. Not much but enough to see there was a difference.
Greg
 

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when I was in..

We referred to the axiom..." it's not the dope on the rifle, it's the dope behind the rifle". Dope was the Corps pet name for sight-settings.and each and every one was different.DI2
 

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I shoot left handed, and most of the time when I fire a rifle sighted by a right handed shooter the poi is different. This holds true with handguns that have target sights also.
 

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maybe some older members have more expierience.

i zero off a bipod and rear bag at a bench.

when i get to a competition we shoot targets located at odd distances.

i zero a touch high at 200, and this lets me hit most targets fairly easily.

the competition have us shooting from all sorts of positions and i have never expirienced zero shift due to position change.

in 3 matches i have had a failure or run out of ammo and subsequently borrowed another shooters gear. they have always shot at the zero i was told.

so this is just my expirience and thats only the ebr, and ar15 with magnified optics and proper cheek rest.

with a more user set cheek weld like the topless m14, you have the variable of how far the shooters eye is from the rear aperture.

i would think if you teach all shooters to put their cheek in the same spot that reduces the variable down to anatomical considerations.


those that actually train mew shooters would know more through expirience than my limited shooting times.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Sighting in

So, from what I see here I guess that the only way to be sure is to sight the rifle with the actual persons and positions we shoot.

I can see that.
But , as I said we only shoot at 200yds on 5V targets. Pretty easy.

So I guess it would still work because we are give 3 spotters before the actual shoot commences to adjust the sights.

In my experience, with my own weapon, once I set it up on the rest, it doesn't vary no matter what position I use. It hits the same in prone, sitting, kneeling and off hand.

Really good weapon, I guess.
 

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In my experience, with my own weapon, once I set it up on the rest, it doesn't vary no matter what position I use. It hits the same in prone, sitting, kneeling and off hand.

Really good weapon, I guess.
Nothing to do with the weapon. Just body geometry.

It's not uncommon to be a few left or right and differing elevation from one position to another. You see this most clearly at a reduced course match. Some shoot with a cant in seated, so that adds another difference.

Zeroes also change over time. That's one of the reasons we keep a databook.
 

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I had three different zeros at 200 yards when I shot the M14. None of those were for shooting off a bench.

The trick (when shooting similar rifles and ammo) is to know your "natural changes."

On the First Army Area team, we "pick-up" shooters often shot three different rifles a week. One during practice and one for each day of a weekend match. You'd go to practice or the match with a rifle (M14) you had NEVER shot before. You learned quick... or you were sent back to your Unit.
 

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As a product of MC Marksmanship Training instruction I agree that every individual, their rifle and ammo are a unique system. So sighting in someone's rifle for them will be of only limited benefit to the shooter. That being said it might save some time on getting close to the range being shot at but those individuals should be given time to make adjustments. They would need to adjust for their form and ammo should they bring different types into the 'equation'.
 

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Not everyone's eye is located the same distance from their cheek. Therefore to achieve proper sight alignment someone else is going to want their cheek in a different spot.

It's not all biophysical either. You can have 20/20 vision and still have poor depth perception for example. Some of it could be how our brains interpret visual information.

Equivalent POA may not provide for identical POI between individuals.
 

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I argued that if that was so then the person shooting the rifle would constantly be adjusting the sights depending on what poor shooting form he was using that day.
A shooter DOES need to adjust the sights if he does not hold the rifle the same way each time. Ask me how I know this.

Tim
 

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Correct

Former USMC PMI here....yes, everyone needs to sight their own rifle. Eye relief will definitely change the POA/POI. Bench sighting a rifle will get any shooter of that rifle on the target, or should at sighting range. The shooter would then need to adjust the sights to compensate for stock weld, eye relief and tilt for their personal shooting position. DI5
 

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You can use the bench to help them get on paper. But don't be surprised if they need a couple clicks to dial into the center.
 

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Off a solid clamp type rest, yes, you are sighting the rifle unto itself and that is accurate,
But everyones eye relief is different along w/ their bad or good habits of form of which
I am probably the worst.....(corrective lenses,corrective surgery) in the bad habits
category! but I keep trying and just love the M14 platform (dream rifle) and keep
wasting ammo w/ a big smile on my face............OH CRAP!!!I went off of tangent.
So yeah your both right to varying degrees
 
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