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I have one mag loaded with these if the need arises...

Font Box Packaging and labeling Carton Rectangle


 

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I haven't shot it out of an M14 platform, but I've had stellar results from Federal Terminal Ascent 175s, and Federal Edge TLR 175s. I'm not sure they make the Edge TLR anymore. It shot sub-moa 10 round strings as fast as I could acquire the target out to 300 yards. It was probably the rifle more than the ammo though; Remington M24.
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I have one mag loaded with these if the need arises...

View attachment 479608

I'll have to check these, also. I did some reading, and this is supposed to be very effective for deer. The ones suitable for elk had heaver bullets, but too-high muzzle velocity. Since this would be urban defense, I don't think it would matter significantly.

I am confident that any goon attacking you will be unable to continue, and his buddies would go elsewhere, after you put one of these rounds in him!
 

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Okay i'm a little confused. Lets say for example i have a 22" barrel with a fast 1/10 twist. Can I feed my rifle a steady diet of M118LR with no issues? Isn't that what M118 (175 gr) is for?
 

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Recent production M118LR has 43 grains of RL15 and is safe in the M14. Original M118LR had 44 grains and was too hot.

While I don't like M118LR, I use FGMM 175's, Mk 316 Mod 0, or my duplicates, which all have similar ballistics. I use a Schuster overbored and ported plug, just to be on the safe side.
 

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Since I ran out of IMR 4064 I have been loading 41.5 grains IMR 4166 with a 168 grain SMKBT @ 2606 FPS. Having previously loaded the same bullet over 43 grains of IMR 4064 I was concerned there may be a performance loss. Not to worry. At 100 yards I can cover a 3 shot group with a quarter.
Now.... if you don't feel that's enough gun there's always a new Side Gate Henry in 45-70 that will eliminate all doubt. I can't tell you how much fun that gun is. Words just don't do justice. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Use deer rounds, not elk rounds for self defense! (I was wrong.)

After talking with a friend of mine who is an avid hunter, I have changed my mind. I was incorrect in thinking that a big-game round in .308 was better for self defense.

His answer, based on experience hunting Southern whitetail deer in Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia, is that elk rounds do not expand quickly in deer, and wind up overpenetrating. Adult male deer in the Southeast weigh from ~150lbs to ~250lbs, while adult male elk are more than three times this at ~700lbs.

This is an ugly topic, since it is about shooting humans, even if they are marauding attackers.

That said, the 150-250 pounds of deer better matches adult men's bodies, so the round for self defense should be one appropriate for deer. For an M14 type rifle, it seems better to stick with polymer tipped bullet because it has the same shape of the spire/spitzer FMJ rounds the M14 is designed for. Anything with exposed lead tips seems that it would put shaved lead bits in the action. Not good!

@Para Pete linked to a Winchester polymer tipped round (Winchester W308ST, 150gr, 2620fps), which is listed as a self-defense round. It looks like the best option, if you can find any. I looked for over 30 minutes, and it was out of stock everywhere.

I did a quick, incomplete survey of various rounds, which are claimed to be appropriate for deer, and they were all too hot, going by the chart @KurtC provided.

There are varmint rounds in 308, and I wonder if any of them would be suitable.
 

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Couple thoughts, do with them what you feel:

1) be mindful of “preparing for the worst” becoming homicidal fantasies. The boundary between the two may be unclear, but it’s a significant thing to notice once that line has been crossed.

2) I think you’ve gotten plenty of answers to the question. Let’s not forget what these rifles were designed for. They worked just fine to “stop” a person with fmj. A commercial hunting round will be quite a mess if used on a person.

3) don’t overthink this. There’s little need.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Couple thoughts, do with them what you feel:

1) be mindful of “preparing for the worst” becoming homicidal fantasies. The boundary between the two may be unclear, but it’s a significant thing to notice once that line has been crossed.

2) I think you’ve gotten plenty of answers to the question. Let’s not forget what these rifles were designed for. They worked just fine to “stop” a person with fmj. A commercial hunting round will be quite a mess if used on a person.

3) don’t overthink this. There’s little need.
Thank you for the reply. I have seen posts by those with "homicidal fantasies" you mentioned, and they bother me also. While I get your point about what a hunting round can do to a body, FMJ bullets go a long way. I am thinking a deer/self defense round is better for the same reason hollow points are the best choice for handguns.

When I reply to those who gloat about wanting to shoot a "bad guy," I always tell them that shooting someone should always be your last resort. I also criticize the "stand your ground" laws. I say that responsible gun owners should avoid situations, and to leave the area, if possible.

It bears repeating that shooting someone, even if completely justified, may not look justified to the police after the fact. Even if you don't have to spend a lot of money on a criminal defense, legal fees for a civil suit by the family will also cost a bundle.

Finally, unless there is something wrong with a person, killing someone will haunt you. Just ask my friend/neighbor who is a cop. He unintentionally killed a man who was trying to strangle his partner. It bothers him, and he still has nightmares about it many years after the fact.
 

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Would anyone care to suggest a commercial round which would be suitable? I know that "man stopper" is a myth, at least in pistol ammo, but a 308 hunting round has a good chance of dropping a thug.

For proper feeding, I'm thinking of a polymer tip. Maybe this?

Federal Premium Ammunition 308 Winchester 165
I bought cases of this 165 gr stuff in the gold boxes with the orange plastic cartridge holders at 13.99 a box and it was very close to the 168 gr GMMK in accuracy. I also got one of the 1994 recalled cases where the copper jacket was not annealed to the lead core. After a 1/2 inch of penetration on a deers hide or wet paper in a Frackler box the bullet just exploded into hundreds of fragments like a grenade going off in a deer creating a 3 -4 inch diameter wound channel 9 inches deep.Great frangible rounds for self defense.
 

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What's the difference between a "deer" round and an "elk" round?
I think most hunters would consider something like a .30-30 to be perfect for woods deer of any size, but an absolute minimum for elk which can be up to 3 times the size and weight of big deer.
Thats maybe an extreme example since many modern hunters figure a .30-06 is light for deer, which is nonsense of course.
Still, most would probably consider a .270 as a good minimum for elk and skys the limit going upwards depending on expected hunting ranges.
 

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Well considering that I've known of elk being dropped with .223 cartridges (definitely not something I'd recommend) I submit that there isn't any such thing as an "elk" round vs a "deer" round. Anything 6mm and up will do the job if you make a good hit with the right kind of bullet.
 

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I agree with anthonypd think varmint loads unless you are walking the hayfields in Delta Junction AK.
where the grey wolves, black and brown bears come out at twilight. I have shot large whitetails in WV with the 168 gr Win Silver-tips and literately blown a lung out at 175 yards the 150 or less bullet size for vermin.
 
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