M14 Forum banner

21 - 36 of 36 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,415 Posts
I chamber my M14 rifles right in the 1.632 range. My brass case headspace is set at 1.628. After firing cases stretch approximately .006 to .008 or right in the 1.634 to 1.636 range. All lube is removed from cases after loading. Been doing it the same way for 46 years with no troubles. Mil brass,current load used 41.5 4895 CCI #34. 168 smk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
I chamber my M14 rifles right in the 1.632 range. My brass case headspace is set at 1.628. After firing cases stretch approximately .006 to .008 or right in the 1.634 to 1.636 range. All lube is removed from cases after loading. Been doing it the same way for 46 years with no troubles. Mil brass,current load used 41.5 4895 CCI #34. 168 smk.
Thank you for this info. I wish I was seeing .006 to .008 stretch but mine is more like .012 - .016

Your load is one of my favorites too although I am going to try Fed GM210 primers.

RAMMAC - My gas system is unitized so I don't have the option of shutting it off to test.

Thanks,

Ole Silver
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
The data that you present, not to mention the verbose nature of same, I found entertaining and educational to a point.

My loaded stuff is clean & not lubricated. That's it & that will not change.

I enjoyed reading and then realized that I was not getting an answer to my question
Fair enough, I was answering attacks not your needs.

I took my bag of LC66 brass, the brass I fired 23 times in my M1a, last time I shot this was during Rattle Battle at Camp Perry, then I decided to retire the brass because primer pockets were getting large. This brass was last lubricated with Johnson Paste wax, as paste wax leaves a dry coating, it is a dry film lubricant. I suspect the wax is ceresin wax, the same stuff used in the Pedersen rifle.

I dropped the unsized cases into my Wilson gage. The top step corresponds exactly to a No Go chamber gage at 1.634” The lower step is 1.630”. All of these cases show a shoulder expansion above the “No Go” ledge. I small base size to gage minimum (1.630") , plus or minus, for my gas guns, to ensure reliable function and minimize the chance of an out of battery slamfire.



The barrel this brass was shot in has been long used up, I am on the third match barrel for this rifle. I don’t remember the chamber headspace of that barrel. You can assume it was cut with a pull through reamer, it may have been a minimum chamber. I ask for Go plus two, but gunsmiths use what tools they have and you get what they give you.

So you can see that this brass has been stretched about 0.019” from "Go".

Even so, this stretching is not coming from the case head as I have sectioned some of this brass and never, ever, ever, saw evidence of case head separation or brass necking in the sidewalls even though this brass has been fired 23 times in M1a's.



I tried several calipers and there is error in measurement and slight differences in caliper readings. Don’t assume that my gages have been to cal lab recently or these measurements are definitive.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
Slamfire1,

That is some very good information.

23 times fired, wow!!!

Do you have to resize the case neck to get it to drop into the Wilson gauge? The reason I ask is that I have a Lyman gauge & I have to resize the neck before I can get a meaningful measurement as the case neck gets stuck in the gauge. After neck sizing, I am seeing very much the same thing that you are seeing but mine are not going out quite as far. I am seeing an average of about .015. That is on twice fired brass that was annealed before the second firing.

Do you anneal your brass?

Thanks for the great info.

Ole Silver
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Do you have to resize the case neck to get it to drop into the Wilson gauge? The reason I ask is that I have a Lyman gauge & I have to resize the neck before I can get a meaningful measurement as the case neck gets stuck in the gauge. After neck sizing, I am seeing very much the same thing that you are seeing but mine are not going out quite as far. I am seeing an average of about .015. That is on twice fired brass that was annealed before the second firing.
I just dropped the cases, as is, in the Wilson gage. I did wipe off wax residue and powder residue from around the case necks so I would get a truer reading within the gage.

These cases were fired in a match barrel. If your barrel has a military chamber it is very likely larger all the way around. Military chambers tend to be big, they want function in all conditions with ammunition from all over NATO.

I never annealed the brass. That was something I was not willing to spend a lot of time on, I shoot something basically each weekend, so I have to get my brass loaded up and ready for the next match.

I have ammo cans of once fired LC and I do agree that annealing would prevent neck cracks, but I am willing to trade off the case loss for the time.

I have several friends who are F Class Champions, these are people who are very good rifle shots whether it be rimfire or centerfire. They start with good brass and get world class results and they don’t anneal case necks.

Ammunition errors are small compared to shooter errors. People who shoot only on concrete benches with 40 lbs of sandbags with psuedo benchrest rifles will see errors due to ammunition that you will not see in a human held weapon. That is assuming they can read the wind. It does not matter how good a rifle you have, if you want to compete well in Long Range, you better be able to read wind in print and in the braille version.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
Slamfire1,

HeHe,

Point taken on the GI barrel. I have a 1968 SAK GI barrel that never saw action before SA screwed on the receiver in 1990. It works real well though.

I am expecting my new rifle just about any day now. LRB M25 with WMMW 22 inch barrel. Jon Wolfe is building it for me. From what he has told me, test firing will be next week.

I was gonna have a M1 tanker built but decided to just keep my old SAI standard in a nice tight FG stock. The build that Wolfe is doing for me is in a JAE Gen2. The SA standard did an admirable job in the JAE. The standard is now my field rifle. A good rifle to take hiking in Colorado. The Wolfe will be for long range work.

Thanks Again for your info.

Ole Silver
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
455 Posts
Ole Silver: This will sound like lecturing, but if you have brass fired in a GI barrel, for safeties sake, size it in a small base die before you use it in a commercial chamber.

Here are some pictures illustrating my concerns

I found two cases, big cases, that had obviously been fired in a GI barrel.

On the left is a Wilson gage. This gage is cut large between the shoulders so you can get a rough measurement of chamber headspace.

On the right is a reamer cut gage. This gage was cut for my by Gene Barnett after my first Garand out of battery slamfire. This was all from the school of hard knocks. Gene cut this reamer with the same reamer he uses in chambering his barrels. I have used many of Barnett’s barrels over the decades now. This reamer is dimensionally correct for a rifle chamber and as you can see, the unsized fired case will not drop into it. The other big case drops right in the Wilson gage.

By the way, if you want a reamer cut gage, you can also call Compass Lake Engineering in Florida. Frank made me one for my .223 and it was about $35.00.









Here I have sized one of these cases in a standard sizing die, it is trimmed and clean and ready to drop in.




You see here that a standard sizing die does not reduce a ballooned case enough and there is an interference fit. This amount of case sticking up is virtually identical to the interference fit I had with my 30-06 cases on my second out of battery slamfire. On those cases I had reamed the primer pockets deeply and seated all primers by hand. But those Federal primers were just too sensitive and the interference fit of the case in chamber was enough to defeat any firing pin blocking function that the firing pin retracting cam could provide. With a case this long the bolt stops, to crunch fit the thing, and the firing pin rebounds off the primer because there is nothing to block it. If this happens before lug engagement, and you have a sensitive primer, the result will be an out of battery slamfire.

I highly recommend you only use the least sensitive primers on the market, currently CCI #34’s and Tula7.62 are the only primers advertized as “mil spec”.



Here the other case, sized in a small base die, just drops flush in the reamer cut gage. This is what you want, a non-interference fit to your chamber. As Gene told me “you want the case smaller than the chamber”. He was 100% right.

Another thing, because of the reamer cut gages I have, I have noticed that cases that fell into the gages after sizing, will sometimes be an interference fit if they are crimped. Crimping buckles the shoulder or case neck, I don’t know what because the effect is too small to see, but it does something. I do not recommend crimping bullets for that, and a number of other reasons.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
Slamfire1,

Thanks for the coaching.

Fact is that I have brass for each of my rifles.

I have not found any need to use small base dies.

I body size with a Redding die and then neck size with either a Lee collet neck sizer or a Forster bushing bump neck sizer. It all depends on what rifle/brass that I am working.

Cheers!!

Ole Silver
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
Ole Silver,

I've read through this thread at least twice (skipping over some of the stuff that, as you mentioned, is more/less not dealing with your original question). I apologize if I've missed it, but I don't feel like you've explained exactly how you originally determined the "bump back" that you use when full-length sizing for your M14.

You said:

Ole Silver said:
My 308 bolt gun is dead nuts on at 1.630. Fire formed cases come in at 1.628 - 1.629 with most being 1.629. That's how I know that my RCBS mic is dead on.
I assume you mean that you fire form for your bolt gun. But did you ever use a method of fire forming and then gauging off the fire formed case for your M14? If so, what steps did you use exactly?

I apologize; not trying to rub anyone the wrong way. I just feel like after many lengthy posts, the most important question never got asked (or I'm just dense and I missed it) - How much are you bumping the shoulder back upon full-length sizing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
581 Posts
Size your cases to around 0.004" under your rifle chamber headspace and you should be good. After firing your brass should come out all roughly the same cartridge headspace length. I found that measuring before and after firing and comparing the two cleared up a lot of mystery about headspace. The wild card in the M1A / M14 world is the effect of the forcefull ejection on the case, every rifle is different and will subject each ejected case to it's own version of torture.

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Greatplainsrifleman & Vanagonjon,

Thank you both for your responses.

My chamber is cut at 1.6315 dead nuts on my M1A. I resize my cases to 1.628-1.629. I know the chamber HS is right as I use my RCBS mic to validate my measurements when I gut the bolt and test the brass for bolt closure. The bolt will close on 1.631 & I would have to muscle it to close on 1.632. The RCBS mic validates that the HS hang tag of 1.6315 from SAI is OK.

I do no do any fireforming work on the M1A cases. Simple reason is that they won't fit into a case gauge after firing. I full length resize. I fired 200 rounds today of my reloads. GGG brass, 168 Nosler custom comps, CCI#34 primers, 41.5 of IMR4064, brass sized at 1.628-1.629, COAL 2.820. I checked when I got home & the fired brass was between 1.642 & 1.645. The rifle functioned without flaw.

I guess that is just the nature of the Beast.

In short, I only fireform for my bolt guns.

I have a screwed/staked unitized gas system on the M1A so I can't just turn it off to test that way.

Thanks for Your Feedback Guys!!!!!!!

Ole Silver
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,143 Posts
I'll bet that your throat is long. The only way to know for sure is by casting the chamber using Cerrosafe. I've done that to my SOCOM and it has a long throat and the brass from my SOCOM is always stretched more than the brass from my Loaded model rifle. The Loaded model has a far tighter chamber in both diameter and length specs.

An alternative way of checking the throat would be to measure the length of the case's neck before and after firing. If the neck stretch causes most of the total case stretch then I'd say that the throat is long.

According to SAAMI specs the neck should be about 0.321" long as measured from the shoulder to the mouth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
RAMMAC,

I think you are correct.

I fired 200 reloads done with GGG brass a couple of days ago testing my magazines. Brass was once fired from LEO bolt rifles. Straight & clean.

65% of my reloads were less than .001 runout on a NECO guage. 30% were .002 or less & the last 5% were 3% or less.

I did my usual prep on the cases. Deprime, uniform primer pockets, tumble, size the case body with a Redding die. No neck sizing, just case body & shoulder push back to 1.628-9. Resized the necks with a Forster bushing neck sizer.

I reloaded the same cases and got 30% .001 or less runout 60% .002 or less runout and nothing else over .003.

That was puzzling to me. I was paying real close attention to all the details as I really like the GGG brass.

Here is the kicker. The brass, after tumbling, did not clean up as well on one side of the necks. The dirty side was the low side when I ran the loaded rounds on the NECO for runout.

I think I may have a messy chamber. 1968 SAK USGI Chrome lined 22 inch. Chamber cleaned religiously.

What do you think?

Thanks RAMMAC,

Ole Silver
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,143 Posts
41.5gr of IMR 4064 sure doesn't seem like a hot load that would wear the chamber a lot. I think either the chamber was cut a little out of spec of there has been a lot of rounds through it.

There is one other possibility; there could be excess movement of the bolt due to either the receiver being out of spec or the bolt lugs being worn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #35
RAMMAC,

I bought this 1990 SAI syandard abotu 2 & 1/2 years ago. It didn't look like it had hardly been fired. The owner said he couldn't get it to shoot straight.

I had a smith look at the barrel and he said it looked almost virgin. My wife was almost virgin too when I met her.

I downranged a few hundred rounds of junk, semi junk, good milsurp & good ammo. American Eagle & FGMM.

It stunk bad with everything but the American Eagle. It still wasn't that good & then the FGMM was not all that impressive either.

That's when I decided to make some mods.

First was fitting the handguard so that the action wasn't filing wood.
Second was shimming the GS.
Third was installing a Sadlak op rod spring guide & Tubbs spring.
Fourth was a WIN trigger group from Elmer.
Fifth was ream GI flash suppressor.
Sixth was a unitzed GS from Hueygunner / Tried Sadlak piston. Rifle didn't like it.
Seventh was adjusting dwell time.
Eigth was a JAE Gen2 Stock & Leupold Scope/Bassett mount.

I almost forgot - I realligned the oprod guide.
Also, Put a dab of high temp silicon under the handguard.

Relieving the handguard & shimming the gas system had the biggest effect with the exception of the JAE stock. That made a huge difference immediately.

It shoots very well now. Some of my handloads are grouping under an inch rapid fire at 100 meters with my handloads.

I put the rifle back into a proven good USGI fiberglass stock. Really tight fit and strong lockup. That's what I have been testing with while Jon Wolfe finishes my M25 build.

It's just a 1990 SAI standard that I can depend on and just as loose as some of my old girlfreinds. Still dependable too!!!!!!

As a reloader I am just trying to figure out why it is tweaking my brass.

Verbose I know. Too much iced tea today.

Ole Silver
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
Discussion Starter #36
Got the Jon Wolfe M25 and here is what I've observed.

The chamber on the WMMW barrel is cut in such a way that Nosler 168CC's touch the lands at a COAL of 2.820. That said, I had to push the pills deeper on my reloads as they were loaded for my old stretched out SAK barrel.

Went to the range today & tested the new rifle. It functioned flawlessly. I was ready to run 100 rounds through it but stopped after 70. I went through the cleaning routine for the new barrel and just had a blast.

My GGG brass with Nosler 168CC's in front of 41.5 of IMR4064 gave me consistent 1.5 inch groups. Some of the other loads didn't do quite as well. I was firing 10 shot groups rapid and felt like a kid again.

When I got home I measured the shoulder push on the brass and it was between .003 & .004 on everything.

I guess my old SAK barrel is either not cut right or it is just plain shot out.

I am talking to Jon Wolfe about a 18.5 WMMW fluted barrel and just need to get the wife to agree that would be a good Christmas present for me & my old SA standard. I was thinking about a M1 tanker but the old SA with a shorter barrel will make a real nice scout/field rifle. I will more than likely be buried with it.

Jon Wolfe built me an outstanding rifle.

Ole Silver
 
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
Top