[nikernr]

All of the rifles had the standard crome GI light weight barrel, however to my surprise most of them were new as they gaged 3 or less on throat wear. TheM-118LR has the same length as the M-118 Special ball and was developed to replace that round. There is no problem in shooting the ammo in any rifle chambered for 7.62X51mm. All the rifles chambered, fired and extracted the ammo flawlessly. I am a bit of a brass hound so I did inspect the brass, no signs of over pressure or flattened primers.


We did not replace the barrels as there are none in the system and speaking to people who witnessed it, under Clinton's reign of corrupt terror and abuse the NM rifles and barrels were put to the "Chopper" at Aniston Army Depot.

The Army at one time (1993) had an outstanding black stainless National Match heavy barrel in the supply sytem for a tax payer cost of $185.00. They shot great, I personally built rifles with these barrels that were 1/2 MOA shooters with M852 ammo.

 

[BobbyLee]

M118LR has same length as M118SB? Hmmm....must take a look at my stash thereof tonight. Interesting. I just spoke with RIA's SME on the matter this afternoon and he's checking into the purported problems of pressure spikes as well.

 

[TEA]

Just a side note to add. Saw a friend from the 1st Cav at the TSRA HP Championship @ LT Dillon yesterday. He'd just got back from Iraq and had been issued an M14 to use as a DMR just before they deployed last year. It was a rack grade M14 with no accurizing. I asked what kind of scope and mount he used, and he said he used just irons, and that they worked just fine for him. He's a really good shot, though (how good? he won the Expert division at yesterday's match in really challenging conditions that had even most of the High Masters struggling to break 700), and was already very familiar with shooting the M14, which is why his CO issued it to him. I'll see if I can get his e-mail address and send him an invite to this forum. He'd probably be able to add a lot more info to this thread.

 

[JIGBALLS]

The M14 is always preferred by folks who don't have to carry it and 440 rounds of ammunition! And who don't have to do fire and maneuver!

-- Chuck

It seems a similar rifle was carried in WWII and they loved it !!

 

[JR]

Jigballs, the M16 is usually preferred by those who only carry the weapon, not use it to defend themselves. The whole thing is cliched to death. There were an awful lot of people who carried, and used, the M14 rifle in close combat, in jungles, against a very determined enemy. There was also a lot less transport available at that time. You actually carried everything on your back 100% of the way. Most of us prefer the M14 to the M16.

I was just at Parris Island, to watch my step-daughter graduate from Boot Camp. In talking with the firearms instructors, it was painfully obvious that they would prefer to teach their Marines the M14 over the M16. They said that the M16 was not as reliable as the M14, didn't hit as hard, and had less penetration of cover than the M14 had. They also stated that the M16 was much more maintainance intensive than the M14, which has been a problem of increasing magnitude with today's soldiers.

Whatever the reasons, after 40+ years, the M16 system is still not where the older, gas-rod, systems were in 1940 as far as reliability goes. Pity what politics can produce, isn't it? :?

 

[Lonewolf762]

Some of you refer to the problems of .308 type AR-10 platforms.
But exactly what is/are the problem('s) with these rifles

 

[JR]

The original AR-10 had QC problems. The 7.62x51 is considerably harsher on the Stoner design than the 5.56x45. I kind of like the AR-10 myself. It's like somebody watered an M16 and it grew into a real rifle. Yet, just like the 5.56 weapon, they do tend to dirty themselves internally when firing. Given the choice between an M16A3 or M4, and an AR-10, I'd be jumping at the AR-10.

 

[Silverguy]

Bull Honky

What that original guy in that article about the M14's not being suffcient for "line" units is a bunch of bull honky. The M14 provides better knock down power than the 5.56mm round and that's why soldiers are using them. Secondly, instead of using the M14's instead of a vamped up AR-15 rifle is simple, the rifles are already in the inventory and they have less probablity of jamming. With all the pics I have seen from the USMC and the US Army using the ol M14's in Iraq and Afghanistan. Looks like they agree. This guy who commented in this article is full of horse dump.

 

[Maddogkiller]

The three best battle rifles ever fielded are the M14, FNFAL, and M1 Garand. In my not so expert opinion, the best battle rifle that we can put in our warriors hands is an M14 with integral scope bases like those offered by LRB.



50 yr old technology, at least in regard to firearms, is still better than what we are sending our warriors into battle with now.


* I know that this post added nothing of value to the thread, but I feel better for having posted it.

 

[Spartacus2002]

I shot my M1A yesterday for 250 rounds, making a total of 3000 lifetime rounds thru it with only 4 jams -- all of which were magazine-related.

I had a dream last night that I was in war with an M16 that jammed.

I think I need to get a life

 

[1SGA]

---------------
I'm quite familiar with the 10th Mountain experience with their recent M14 rebuild. Problem is that the rebuild team didn't think outside the box, the way 2ID did (i.e. M14SE Crazy Horse and suppressor) and now other DoD units are doing. As to the lack of "parts, proper fixtures and qualified people to help build them.." that didn't stop 2ID, did it? Keep in mind 2ID (and others) got suppressors -- 10th Mtn didn't. Nor did it stop a certain Cav unit, an SFG or the USAF. Nor will it stop two other Army divisions in the coming months. Anyone check FBO lately? They're buying M-14 flash hiders, and other spares. Sure, not in the quantities like when the weapon was standard issue, but certainly in numbers appropriate for the DMR role.

That bit about a lack of qualified people to build them really ticks me off. You do understand they're talking about Civil Servants, don't you? Guys like Ron Smith, Warbird and Clint McKee and a host of others will run circles around these guys and therein lies the problem: an up-ended government ricebowl. Oh, and lest I forget, some allies armed with the venerable M14 are getting their weapons modernized by US industry, too!

Tasco Super Sniper (fixed 10X no less!), ARMS 18 and GI barrels. I'll let those items stand on their own merits. Pause.

A stop gap effort? Really? So we can wait until Picatinny and DCD, Fort Benning force the SR-25 down our throats as the XM-110... at three times the cost of a weapon that does the exact same thing? It's a fait accompli anyway, in case there's any doubt.

I just reread this whole thread and I am a bit peeved at the comments directed into my AO. There is an implied theme that I speak with forked tongue - not the case.
Some clarifications need to be made as it appears that some of these comments were taken out of context and then sprinkled with a liberal dose of flavorful opinions and gunrag myths. Let me state my personal agenda - NONE - Opinion: I love the M14 - carried a 21 & a 25. I am not bashing the system - just stating facts as I have seen through person experience and as printed documents emminating from the US Army Infantry School, TRADOC, US Army Sniper school etc.

1. The soldiers that worked on the M14 rebuild program at Drum were HIGHLY constrained by budget issues - they didn't have the opportunity to think outside the box because they couldn't afford to. We're talking SSG's and SFC's and the OIC. The 2nd ID's SIE Crazy Horse systems are beautiful - however - realize that the SBCT's are the cutting edge in the modularity conversion and are the recipients of more funding than they know what to do with.
1A. The lack of qualified people is REAL - I am not talking about commercial gunsmiths - are these guys going to shutter their businesses and hop over to the sand box to import the institutional knowledge and support required to keep the rifles FMC? I doubt it - maybe short term, but not for the long haul to build a SME foundation. You need the armorers and ordnance guys at 20 / 30 and depot level to support sytems in combat environments.

2. As another poster wrote, the 173 LRSD got 22 fully matched prepped rifles - true and they were done so because they were issued as SNIPER rifles - not DM rifles. My two friends were the on the team that built them.

3. The post on AR15.com referenced the Army's DMR. That choice is a multifaceted nut. It is driven by doctrine, parts commonality, ammunition compatiblity, institutional knowledge, etc. Bank it - the M16 is going to be the platform for the DMR - not if, - gonna happen and is already - several hundred were built and delivered to the 3rd ID.

4. Many of the M14's being shipped overseas are being employed as sniper systems - NOT DMR rifles. Big difference in employment and tactics

5. The reason behind this is the there is an acute shortage of M24's - the Army is not going to go to Walmart and buy Rem 700's off the rack. They are using the next best INTERIM solution - M14's. The M24 contract was completed by Remington and another, follow-on contract is in the works.

6. There is a world of difference between a fully matched prepped M14 in sniper clothing (M21 or M25 or a hybrid) and a rack grade rifle. Not opinion here - fact. I have wrenched and smithed and shot them for nearly 20 years - not M1A's - Real M14's 21's and 25's.

6a. Even the best mounts are not foolproof - my 25 has a Brookfield - god forbid if I take off the day optic and mount a PVS10 and go back, forget about return to zero - the rifle needs to be rezero'd and settled in.

7. The 10th SFG(A) when at Ft Devens ran their own shop facility. MSG Tom Kapp (deceased-god bless him) was the brain child of the system - they devloped a sniper rifle on the M14, with performance that had never been approached before. Even still - it was considered a 600m rifle - TOPS and was geared towards the MOUT fight. I had many face to face talks with him on just this subject.

8. Anyone who truly knows how to build these rifles (match conditioned-sniper rifles) knows that A) They are highly tempermental, B) Difficult to build - labor and special fixture intensive C) No way No how are as reliable as an M16 chassis.

9. The choice of the M16A4 type rifle with an SPR upper (& optics) validates the doctrinal requirement in FM 3-22.9 and specifically identifies the need for the Squad DM to engage targets between 300 and 600 meters.

Let me finish with direct quotes from a few of the documents I have in my possession.

This is from the Commandant U S Army Infantry School-
Subject: Issuing M14's to Stryker Brigade Combat Teams in Lieu of M-4s for the Squad Designated Marksman
Purpose: TO NONCONCUR with the issuing of M14's to SBCT for the Squad Designated Marksman.

The SBCT O&O specified a modified M4/M16. The O&O, chapetr 5.1, Para 4. d. (1) (c) (1) (d), states: "Although normally functioning as a rifleman within one of the fire teams in a rifle squad, the squads designated marksman is equipped with a specially designed M4/M16 rifle system with a special purpose receiver (SPR) unit that allows him to accurately engage and defeat enemy personnel out to 600 meters. When faced with a restrictive ROE, the SDM enhances the force protection of his squad through employment of highly accurate direct live fires that limit potential for collateral damage. The SPR allows the DM to use the same ammunition as the rifle squad and employ the same weapon sighting/designating systems necessary to accomplish the squad's Infantry mission (i.e. close quarter combat). He is employed at the direction of the squad leader or can be reorganized by the PL with other SDM's into an ad-hoc platoon designated marksman section." The USAIS Sniper School recommends the M16A4 with M3A (day optic) and PVS 10.

Further it states:

M14's are not logistically supported, not institutionally trained, and may be of questionable quality. The solution was specifically not chosen during the development of the SBCT concept. Issuing M14's and/or M21 systems for the SBCT squad designated marksman (SDM) will cause unnecessary challenges for the unit during their deployment. Issuing M14's counters the Army's initiatives of commonality of parts, reducing maintenance, commonality of ammunition and training. Bottom line, this will cause a logistical burden.

Let me reinforce this with real world data - another bud of mine runs a sniper section in the 3rd ID - his SNIPERS were short M24's - so they got issued rebuilt (1983 from Anniston - I have the SN's if you'd like to check) M14's as a "in lieu of" for their none to be had M24's. The M14's they got were NOT match conditioned, they came with, a mount, scope and 1 mag -that was it - get on the plane. They got 4 more mags when they got in country - foreign made 30rdrs that wouldn't even function. Through generous donations, I was able to get him 20 more GI mags, so they didn't have to take the mags from the other 3 to enable at least 1 rifle to go on patrol. Their guidence on support was - "You better figure out how to keep them running, 'cause if they go down - 3 to 4 months to get them repaired IF they can get the parts." I have gotten email from his asking for help on maintenance - just sent him a whole box of tools / cleaning gear specific to the M14.

The statement by another poster and attributed to RIA that there are 10,000 M14's in country - YA RIGHT - that is almost 1/4 of our trigger puller strength on the ground - so you're telling me 1 of ever 4 rifleman is toting a 14??? NOT EVEN CLOSE.
I spent a year there and you know how many I saw ? 4. I talked to the unit that had 2 of them and they had no formal training - one of the NCO's had a friend that rebuilt them for the unit (ARNG from Oregon) There in lies the dilema - there is no commonality of the techniques, the methods, or even parts - you have to have the support base built into the sytem - IT IS NOT THERE!!!
Look at what Brian Sain is doing - supporting over 140 sniper plt's - the ones that have the 14's are all saying the same thing - HELP.

Again - I love the 14 with all the enthusiasim of a 16yr old and his 1st piece of ass, but the bottom line is that the M14 - be it as a sniper, a DM rifle, or what ever - is a stop gap measure to fill a huge void. Trust me - they'll go right back to mothballs once a suitable semi auto replacement is adopted

There is no evil conspiricy to damn the M14 into rifle purgatory. Face the facts, it is not coming back a a standardized weapons system.

Another statement regarding the the M16 / DMR effectiveness is limited to 300yds.... The ammunition for the DMR is the 5.56mm Mk262 Mod 0 / Mod 1, 77gr OTM. Trust me, it works - it works at 300 and it works at 500. First hand knowledge of a 1 shot, center mass - Johnny Jihad drop at 300+ yds. Even the Marine Corps - long regarded as the guardians of Everything M14 and the keeper's of the M14 Flame - have concluded (conclusively BTW) that their SAM-R (DMR) will be on the M16A4 w/ optics...

My .02 and not my intention to start a war here.
1SGA

 

[M1AexpertNMC]

my .22 rifle is really really light and I can carry a whole bunch of ammo for it why not just use that? :lol:

Lets be serious now I would rather carry 1 round that will be capable of taking a person down with one shot rather than 4 rounds that will take some one down. Ill take the .308 and hump the extra weight yeah it weighs about 1/3 more with ammo but its 2/3 more effective. The thing of it is the military has turned to more ammo more firepower rather than good ol accuracy.

And good training

 

[Kmc1911]

Woooo TWO THOUSAND AND FIVE.

Didn't/doesn't SEI and Bula supply parts for refit? What's the current landscape looking like for the platform in use? I'm aware of several "better" dmr and sniper weapon system platforms procured and the certainly aren't the aforementioned primitive m24.

Lotta interesting threads in the closet.

 

[Fallscity12]

wow...can't believe I missed this post way back in 2007 when I joined the forum...I lived what was spoken in the last 5 pages...handed a rack grade M-14 and one magazine at Ft Bliss in Sept 2004...but I did receive training...2 weeks on range with Reservist marksmanship training unit...(never got a 1059) all Presidents 100 tabbed NCO's...was informed by them that we basically received Marine Corp Rifle Marksmanship training for the M14...a pallet of m852 and m118 and two weeks later we were adjusting elevation and windage to make iron sight hits out to 500m... there was no doctrine on how to employ the SDM, zero support in country ( had to have a relative purchase and mail me magazines) (molle canteen pouches hold 4 20 rounders like a glove) we were given a Springfield mount and a Leopold MK 4, I had to teach the Company Armorer how to mount both...the only thing we didn't lack was M118 ammo...made furniture out of the crates and cans...lol...and so began my love of the platform...

 

[rallred]

In 04 we were heading to Iraq. I requested M14 rifles as they have always been my favorite platform.I was told no way we would get M14s. One day I was sitting in the orderly room and the phone rang. It was the S-4 NCO. He said and I quote come get these old ass rifles. I said what are they. He said come get them and you will see. Each of our units in the Battalion was issued 5 NM conditioned m14s . The selectors were welded so semi only. I got 4 Smith Enterprises mounts, 4 Leupold Mrk 4 3.5x10x40 scopes,and 2 unmarked mags per rifle. I helped all the units mount the scopes because I have owned M1A type rifle for most of my adult life. I called the ASP to find out what ammo they had. They had the newer M118LR. Seeing as I was the only one with any experience with the rifle off to the range we went. I was the NCOIC . The range we used was a known distance pop up range. Targets out to 800 man sized. I issued the rifles one per platoon. The best IWQ score got dibs. Before the day was out they were hitting 600 yd targets pretty easily. I told my guys to get 2 boxes of the LR as we didn’t know what was available in country. I got my best friend to send me 10 GI mags to help out. When we hit Kuwait we had to rezero . I didn’t get to go that day. The guys were issued ball ammo in 5 round strippers go figure. They fired ball and checked zero with the LR. When we got to Iraq all we could get was special ball and not much of that. Sometimes I need to write stuff down to not forget. I kept the one rifle with a match lightweight barrel for myself. TRW NM it was a shooter. I used a mount and scope of my own as we only had 4 issued. I ran irons most of the time. Hope you enjoy the read. Any questions just ask 1SG out

 

[LD06490]

In 04 we were heading to Iraq. I requested M14 rifles as they have always been my favorite platform.I was told no way we would get M14s. One day I was sitting in the orderly room and the phone rang. It was the S-4 NCO. He said and I quote come get these old ass rifles. I said what are they. He said come get them and you will see. Each of our units in the Battalion was issued 5 NM conditioned m14s . The selectors were welded so semi only. I got 4 Smith Enterprises mounts, 4 Leupold Mrk 4 3.5x10x40 scopes,and 2 unmarked mags per rifle. I helped all the units mount the scopes because I have owned M1A type rifle for most of my adult life. I called the ASP to find out what ammo they had. They had the newer M118LR. Seeing as I was the only one with any experience with the rifle off to the range we went. I was the NCOIC . The range we used was a known distance pop up range. Targets out to 800 man sized. I issued the rifles one per platoon. The best IWQ score got dibs. Before the day was out they were hitting 600 yd targets pretty easily. I told my guys to get 2 boxes of the LR as we didn’t know what was available in country. I got my best friend to send me 10 GI mags to help out. When we hit Kuwait we had to rezero . I didn’t get to go that day. The guys were issued ball ammo in 5 round strippers go figure. They fired ball and checked zero with the LR. When we got to Iraq all we could get was special ball and not much of that. Sometimes I need to write stuff down to not forget. I kept the one rifle with a match lightweight barrel for myself. TRW NM it was a shooter. I used a mount and scope of my own as we only had 4 issued. I ran irons most of the time. Hope you enjoy the read. Any questions just ask 1SG out

First and foremost thanks for your service over there. Also thanks for sharing.

 

[XM25Ren]

In 04 we were heading to Iraq. I requested M14 rifles as they have always been my favorite platform.I was told no way we would get M14s. One day I was sitting in the orderly room and the phone rang. It was the S-4 NCO. He said and I quote come get these old ass rifles. I said what are they. He said come get them and you will see. Each of our units in the Battalion was issued 5 NM conditioned m14s . The selectors were welded so semi only. I got 4 Smith Enterprises mounts, 4 Leupold Mrk 4 3.5x10x40 scopes,and 2 unmarked mags per rifle. I helped all the units mount the scopes because I have owned M1A type rifle for most of my adult life. I called the ASP to find out what ammo they had. They had the newer M118LR. Seeing as I was the only one with any experience with the rifle off to the range we went. I was the NCOIC . The range we used was a known distance pop up range. Targets out to 800 man sized. I issued the rifles one per platoon. The best IWQ score got dibs. Before the day was out they were hitting 600 yd targets pretty easily. I told my guys to get 2 boxes of the LR as we didn’t know what was available in country. I got my best friend to send me 10 GI mags to help out. When we hit Kuwait we had to rezero . I didn’t get to go that day. The guys were issued ball ammo in 5 round strippers go figure. They fired ball and checked zero with the LR. When we got to Iraq all we could get was special ball and not much of that. Sometimes I need to write stuff down to not forget. I kept the one rifle with a match lightweight barrel for myself. TRW NM it was a shooter. I used a mount and scope of my own as we only had 4 issued. I ran irons most of the time. Hope you enjoy the read. Any questions just ask 1SG out

Thank you sir, for your first hand experience, much appreciated!

MORE THAN A HOBBY, A PASSION!

REN

 

[SeanE]

Can't add much to this except to say one of my cops was a Marine Sniper in Iraq and was issued a scoped M1A. He had excellent results and his only complaint of the M1A was the weight.

 

[rallred]

Can't add much to this except to say one of my cops was a Marine Sniper in Iraq and was issued a scoped M1A. He had excellent results and his only complaint of the M1A was the weight.

A match conditioned M14 with a med or heavy barrel scoped out is heavy. They fit the bill in IRaq and Afghanistan because of the ranges at which you have the potential to engage. All the dumb terrorist were killed early. They now know what range they have to get to to make an AK or PKM effective. The M14 or any more precision 7.62 platforms will wax them at those ranges. Thus the reason they were requested.