Glad you were able to troubleshoot your rifle.
Good luck with your project.
Semper Fi
Art
Good luck with your project.
Semper Fi
Art
Receiver/barrel misalignment:
Earlier this year I purchased a Springfield M1A Scout Squad with a Walnut stock.
From the start, I experienced difficulty installing the magazine, and was also unable to squeeze the barrel and stock together to relieve the ferrule/barrel band contact, or move the barrel right or left, with respect to the front ferrule.
First I addressed the magazine insertion problem by polishing the top of the op-rod spring guide and adding grease to the contact area. This appeared to solve the mag insertion issue.
I wanted a range trip before getting serious about performing “performance enhancing” mods to the rifle.
My first trip to the range resulted in 4 to 6-inch groups, and difficulty inserting mags; not good.
Back at the ranch, I discovered that the Op-Rod guide was in solid contact with the stock. After relieving the area under the guide, it became obvious that the gas cylinder was also in contact with the stock ferrule. No matter how large I made the opening in the ferrule, the gas cylinder remained in contact with the left side of the stock, resulting excessive misalignment between the stock ferrule and the barrel band.
It was obvious the receiver/barrel assembly was not parallel with stock centerline. Pressing the barrel to the right would cause the receiver to “rotate” to the right, but immediately spring back to the left when released. At this point, I decided to get Springfield Inc. into the act. They agreed to “inspect and repair” the rifle and furnished me a return authorization.
4-weeks later I received my rifle back from Springfield. It was exactly as it was when I sent it.
The invoice (no-charge) stated an inspection had found no problems, thus, no repairs. They included the test target, which has a 5-shot group of 1-1/4 inches.
I spent afternoon at my local range. Group results were not equal to Springfield's test group; I didn't expect it to be. However, my magazine insertion problem again reared its ugly head; had a hell of a time inserting magazines. Of the three magazines I took to the range, two were “Korean” made; these would not go in with out serious grunting! Back at home, my Springfield supplied mags, and my CMI mags would insert, but with way to much effort; all of my mags are easy to insert into my SAI Super Match. So it was time to get serious.
I pulled the stock liner and started analyzing potential areas affecting receiver alignment and magazine insertion issues.
The culprit appeared to be the stock liner itself. While in the stock, the Left side liner has ~ .003 clearance with left receiver leg, while the Right side appears to have solid contact. The action was tight in the stock, but canted to the left.
With the liner out of the stock, placing a T-Square across the front of the rear liner legs showed them not to be parallel. Measuring the top end of each leg with my dial calipers, showed the top of the right leg to be .413” long, while the top of the left liner leg is only .400” long. The bottom of the right leg was .473” long, while bottom of the left leg was .447. It's clear to me that the liner is causing one or both issues. It's causing the receiver to be twisted left, resulting in the gas cylinder to contact the left side of the stock ferrule. I verified this by grinding the front of the the right rear leg down to match the left rear leg. The grinding resulted in the receiver setting straight, but now the receiver legs fit loosely in the liner “slot”; not good. To use this liner, I would definitely have to bed the rifle.
I purchased a new liner from Fulton Armory. Initial observation of the Fulton unit vs the Springfield part was night and day; the Fulton part was much higher quality, with almost perfect measurements.
The new liner fit the stock much better as well.
Now my action sets straight in the stock, all of my magazines (Korean, Springfield, and KMI) are easily inserted, and I have repeatable left, right movement of the barrel. Additionally, I have light “draw” pressure between the stock ferrule and the barrel bands lower lip. I'm a happy camper.
I do not understand why Springfield did not catch the poorly constructed stock liner; that bothers me. They so readily issued the return authorization, then did nothing but test fire the rifle. Now I can't complain with their results (1-1/4” group from a Scout??), but still a proper inspection should have turned up the liner issue.
Onward and upward with my “accurization” project. I also installed a Sadlak Op-Rod spring guide, and I'm still leaning towards bedding the rifle to get ??better draw?? (better than 1-1/4 groups??-not likely), but I'm having fun.
Roger
From the start, I experienced difficulty installing the magazine, and was also unable to squeeze the barrel and stock together to relieve the ferrule/barrel band contact, or move the barrel right or left, with respect to the front ferrule.
First I addressed the magazine insertion problem by polishing the top of the op-rod spring guide and adding grease to the contact area. This appeared to solve the mag insertion issue.
I wanted a range trip before getting serious about performing “performance enhancing” mods to the rifle.
My first trip to the range resulted in 4 to 6-inch groups, and difficulty inserting mags; not good.
Back at the ranch, I discovered that the Op-Rod guide was in solid contact with the stock. After relieving the area under the guide, it became obvious that the gas cylinder was also in contact with the stock ferrule. No matter how large I made the opening in the ferrule, the gas cylinder remained in contact with the left side of the stock, resulting excessive misalignment between the stock ferrule and the barrel band.
It was obvious the receiver/barrel assembly was not parallel with stock centerline. Pressing the barrel to the right would cause the receiver to “rotate” to the right, but immediately spring back to the left when released. At this point, I decided to get Springfield Inc. into the act. They agreed to “inspect and repair” the rifle and furnished me a return authorization.
4-weeks later I received my rifle back from Springfield. It was exactly as it was when I sent it.
The invoice (no-charge) stated an inspection had found no problems, thus, no repairs. They included the test target, which has a 5-shot group of 1-1/4 inches.
I spent afternoon at my local range. Group results were not equal to Springfield's test group; I didn't expect it to be. However, my magazine insertion problem again reared its ugly head; had a hell of a time inserting magazines. Of the three magazines I took to the range, two were “Korean” made; these would not go in with out serious grunting! Back at home, my Springfield supplied mags, and my CMI mags would insert, but with way to much effort; all of my mags are easy to insert into my SAI Super Match. So it was time to get serious.
I pulled the stock liner and started analyzing potential areas affecting receiver alignment and magazine insertion issues.
The culprit appeared to be the stock liner itself. While in the stock, the Left side liner has ~ .003 clearance with left receiver leg, while the Right side appears to have solid contact. The action was tight in the stock, but canted to the left.
With the liner out of the stock, placing a T-Square across the front of the rear liner legs showed them not to be parallel. Measuring the top end of each leg with my dial calipers, showed the top of the right leg to be .413” long, while the top of the left liner leg is only .400” long. The bottom of the right leg was .473” long, while bottom of the left leg was .447. It's clear to me that the liner is causing one or both issues. It's causing the receiver to be twisted left, resulting in the gas cylinder to contact the left side of the stock ferrule. I verified this by grinding the front of the the right rear leg down to match the left rear leg. The grinding resulted in the receiver setting straight, but now the receiver legs fit loosely in the liner “slot”; not good. To use this liner, I would definitely have to bed the rifle.
I purchased a new liner from Fulton Armory. Initial observation of the Fulton unit vs the Springfield part was night and day; the Fulton part was much higher quality, with almost perfect measurements.
The new liner fit the stock much better as well.
Now my action sets straight in the stock, all of my magazines (Korean, Springfield, and KMI) are easily inserted, and I have repeatable left, right movement of the barrel. Additionally, I have light “draw” pressure between the stock ferrule and the barrel bands lower lip. I'm a happy camper.
I do not understand why Springfield did not catch the poorly constructed stock liner; that bothers me. They so readily issued the return authorization, then did nothing but test fire the rifle. Now I can't complain with their results (1-1/4” group from a Scout??), but still a proper inspection should have turned up the liner issue.
Onward and upward with my “accurization” project. I also installed a Sadlak Op-Rod spring guide, and I'm still leaning towards bedding the rifle to get ??better draw?? (better than 1-1/4 groups??-not likely), but I'm having fun.
Roger
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
thanks for sharing. This info will be helpful to several people in the future having issues with the SAI junk stock liner.
You may consider trying different gas pistons to find the one that gives the best results. This can be a pain to do, but can result in a much better shooter.
You may consider trying different gas pistons to find the one that gives the best results. This can be a pain to do, but can result in a much better shooter.
You went to a lot of trouble to replace the liner which is very easy to adjust. I understand that most folks don't know the procedures to do these things. They are not Armorers and have no training. The liner is made of very soft steel allowing them to be adjusted, sometimes even without tools. I'm glad you were able to obtain a satisfactory part and correct the issue.
Hey Ted - never heard about adjusting the liner - thank you!
(most of my rifles have no liner, just bedded - FYI)
(most of my rifles have no liner, just bedded - FYI)
Your case is unusual with Springfield's customer service as they have a reparation of being top notch.
Did their test target mention at what range that group was fired? If its a 25yrd 1.25 group, thats less impressive. I would also guess they might test fire with the rifle clamped in something like a sled? I dunno, never considered it until now.Now I can't complain with their results (1-1/4” group from a Scout??), but still a proper inspection should have turned up the liner issue.
Onward and upward with my “accurization” project. I also installed a Sadlak Op-Rod spring guide, and I'm still leaning towards bedding the rifle to get ??better draw?? (better than 1-1/4 groups??-not likely), but I'm having fun.
Roger
Knowledge is power.
Congratulations on fixing the M1A issue that the professionals at Springfield overlooked.
In this case, you obviously cared more about finding a solution than they did.
Often, a caring and careful owner, working on his own ONE gun, can and will do a better job than the "pros", who are mass producing results, possibly with schedules and quotas.
The more you know about your M14 or M1A,
the more DIY servicing you can do on your own,
and the less you have to rely on sending it far far away for "long time GONE!".
Working on the M14 family is NOT rocket science, but it does require proper information, skills, and often, specific M14 compatible tools. Most fixes are relatively simple ONCE THE PROPER DIAGNOSIS HAS BEEN MADE.
Unless you are seriously serious about the M14, and plan to work on several, it is usually more cost effective to send your misbehaving M14/M1A rifle to one of the genuine M14 experts who inhabit this board, or back to SAI.
UNFORTUNATELY,
Here in Canada,
sending an M1A back to Springfield or across the border to one of the acknowledged M14 experts, can turn into an epic quest, with border agents on both side of the line creating delays. Delays that can measure in MONTHS!
And we DEFINITELY can't send no Chine m14s south for no reason whatsoever. And sadly, finding a truly competent [Chinese M14/M305 aware] CANADIAN M14 smith can be like looking for the light switch in a dark room.
SO,
we Canuck M14 shooters have become a bit more self reliant regarding DIY M14 inspections, maintenance, repairs, modifications, and in most cases, we do this DIY stuff fairly successfully.
However,
three out four of the last M14 type rifles that came to me as trades,
had UNSAFE trigger work done by their previous owners.
aka,
FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE WISE MEN TREAD CAREFULLY
SO,
You get an "attaboy" for fixing your own rifle.
That and the satisfaction of KNOWING IT WAS DONE RIGHT, can be addictive.
This is how many of the M14 "gurus" started out, so be careful ...
heading that way can get EXPENSIVE!!
Next thing you know you might be building and fixing M14s for friends,
and then,
gawd forbid,
even for paying customers.
That is how I STARTED OUT.
My name is Larry,
and I am an M14 addict.
I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I AM POWERLESS ON MY OWN TO RESIST AN ORPHAN M14 THAT NEEDS A GOOD HOME.
(;-[)
Congratulations on fixing the M1A issue that the professionals at Springfield overlooked.
In this case, you obviously cared more about finding a solution than they did.
Often, a caring and careful owner, working on his own ONE gun, can and will do a better job than the "pros", who are mass producing results, possibly with schedules and quotas.
The more you know about your M14 or M1A,
the more DIY servicing you can do on your own,
and the less you have to rely on sending it far far away for "long time GONE!".
Working on the M14 family is NOT rocket science, but it does require proper information, skills, and often, specific M14 compatible tools. Most fixes are relatively simple ONCE THE PROPER DIAGNOSIS HAS BEEN MADE.
Unless you are seriously serious about the M14, and plan to work on several, it is usually more cost effective to send your misbehaving M14/M1A rifle to one of the genuine M14 experts who inhabit this board, or back to SAI.
UNFORTUNATELY,
Here in Canada,
sending an M1A back to Springfield or across the border to one of the acknowledged M14 experts, can turn into an epic quest, with border agents on both side of the line creating delays. Delays that can measure in MONTHS!
And we DEFINITELY can't send no Chine m14s south for no reason whatsoever. And sadly, finding a truly competent [Chinese M14/M305 aware] CANADIAN M14 smith can be like looking for the light switch in a dark room.
SO,
we Canuck M14 shooters have become a bit more self reliant regarding DIY M14 inspections, maintenance, repairs, modifications, and in most cases, we do this DIY stuff fairly successfully.
However,
three out four of the last M14 type rifles that came to me as trades,
had UNSAFE trigger work done by their previous owners.
aka,
FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE WISE MEN TREAD CAREFULLY
SO,
You get an "attaboy" for fixing your own rifle.
That and the satisfaction of KNOWING IT WAS DONE RIGHT, can be addictive.
This is how many of the M14 "gurus" started out, so be careful ...
heading that way can get EXPENSIVE!!
Next thing you know you might be building and fixing M14s for friends,
and then,
gawd forbid,
even for paying customers.
That is how I STARTED OUT.
My name is Larry,
and I am an M14 addict.
I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I AM POWERLESS ON MY OWN TO RESIST AN ORPHAN M14 THAT NEEDS A GOOD HOME.
(;-[)
Unsafe trigger work...recently? Are you thinking about the valve grinder paste trick the Caliber magazine talked about?Knowledge is power.
Congratulations on fixing the M1A issue that the professionals at Springfield overlooked.
In this case, you obviously cared more about finding a solution than they did.
Often, a caring and careful owner, working on his own ONE gun, can and will do a better job than the "pros", who are mass producing results, possibly with schedules and quotas.
The more you know about your M14 or M1A,
the more DIY servicing you can do on your own,
and the less you have to rely on sending it far far away for "long time GONE!".
Working on the M14 family is NOT rocket science, but it does require proper information, skills, and often, specific M14 compatible tools. Most fixes are relatively simple ONCE THE PROPER DIAGNOSIS HAS BEEN MADE.
Unless you are seriously serious about the M14, and plan to work on several, it is usually more cost effective to send your misbehaving M14/M1A rifle to one of the genuine M14 experts who inhabit this board, or back to SAI.
UNFORTUNATELY,
Here in Canada,
sending an M1A back to Springfield or across the border to one of the acknowledged M14 experts, can turn into an epic quest, with border agents on both side of the line creating delays. Delays that can measure in MONTHS!
And we DEFINITELY can't send no Chine m14s south for no reason whatsoever. And sadly, finding a truly competent [Chinese M14/M305 aware] CANADIAN M14 smith can be like looking for the light switch in a dark room.
SO,
we Canuck M14 shooters have become a bit more self reliant regarding DIY M14 inspections, maintenance, repairs, modifications, and in most cases, we do this DIY stuff fairly successfully.
However,
three out four of the last M14 type rifles that came to me as trades,
had UNSAFE trigger work done by their previous owners.
aka,
FOOLS RUSH IN WHERE WISE MEN TREAD CAREFULLY
SO,
You get an "attaboy" for fixing your own rifle.
That and the satisfaction of KNOWING IT WAS DONE RIGHT, can be addictive.
This is how many of the M14 "gurus" started out, so be careful ...
heading that way can get EXPENSIVE!!
Next thing you know you might be building and fixing M14s for friends,
and then,
gawd forbid,
even for paying customers.
That is how I STARTED OUT.
My name is Larry,
and I am an M14 addict.
I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I AM POWERLESS ON MY OWN TO RESIST AN ORPHAN M14 THAT NEEDS A GOOD HOME.
(;-[)
the best warranty is one you don't have to use. it's called quality control. the worst warranty is one that is not supported.
Thanks for sharing the problem. I've never heard of the stock liner causing this much trouble. I'm adding it to the database...
http://m14forum.com/reference/73926-m14-m1a-health-check-2.html#post1761178
Tony.
http://m14forum.com/reference/73926-m14-m1a-health-check-2.html#post1761178
Tony.
Better to use a USGI synthetic stock for accuracy and ease of fitting.
Ted Brown: Not sure that there was an easy way to add material to the liner legs. Seems my choices were add material to the .400-long left side leg of liner, or remove material from the .413-long right side liner leg. I did consider TIG welding material onto the liner legs, then grinding them into proper contact with the receiver; just seemed like way too much effort considering the price of a new liner.
GIRTH: Target annotated with 5-shot group at 100yds!
SA762: I'm not sure what to think of there customer service at this point. My initial contact was positive; however, bottom line, I'm not impressed with their follow through. Now, I'm hesitant to slam them, without going back to them for a response to my complaint. My thread, here, is primarily to do with what I consider cause and effect with a specific M1a issue, not really a compliant about there service.
It could be the results of the test-firing led to the assumption that repairs were not required. How can you complain about 1-1/4 inch group at a 100 yds from a "standard grade" M1a?
GIRTH: Target annotated with 5-shot group at 100yds!
SA762: I'm not sure what to think of there customer service at this point. My initial contact was positive; however, bottom line, I'm not impressed with their follow through. Now, I'm hesitant to slam them, without going back to them for a response to my complaint. My thread, here, is primarily to do with what I consider cause and effect with a specific M1a issue, not really a compliant about there service.
It could be the results of the test-firing led to the assumption that repairs were not required. How can you complain about 1-1/4 inch group at a 100 yds from a "standard grade" M1a?
Lazerus2000
The first step on your road to recovery is acknowledging you have a problem. ICONLOL
I like fixing my own stuff also. Congrats
The first step on your road to recovery is acknowledging you have a problem. ICONLOL
I like fixing my own stuff also. Congrats
YEP!!Unsafe trigger work...recently? Are you thinking about the valve grinder paste trick the Caliber magazine talked about?
That is one of the tricks and tweaks I do not use.
Similar to the old valve grinding compound on the bolt lugs and rack the slide a hundred times method for bolt lug mating that used to be taught at the early Canuck M14 seminars.
I can do a decent trigger on even the off angle Chinese trigger groups. Had enough practice at what should go where, that most of them come out quick and easy. But having some one grind down the TOP of the hammer where it engages the bolt [because he did not understand the tilt test is done WITHOUT the trigg r group, or else taking into account the extra drag that happens when the hammer slides under the bolt],and then grinding the tip off the safety notch " to make it easier to disengage the safety "' is beyond repair.
like the great philosophers Harry Callahan and Red Green said,
"A man should know his limitations",
and
"if you can't be handy, be handsome".
And don't get me started about RECORD 6" Vice marks embossed into the receiver sides, or PIPE WRENCH jaw marks on barrels ...
or copper wire between the barrel and receiver to "set torque" properly when re-indexing.
Some times, my hobby of rescuing abused M14 rifles almost makes me cry.
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
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