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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Got yet another rear sight "click" question. And yes, I did search first! I've read so many posts & reviewed Tonyben's excellent videos my eyes are crossing.

I understand the idea of zeroing and adjusting the elevation knob numbers to roughly correspond to 100 or 200 yards (even though the knob is in meters).

What puzzles me, however, is if the "0" on the knob is supposed to correspond to the lowest setting of elevation and how many clicks I should have to get to 100 and 200.

From bottomed out and "0" it takes 10 clicks to get to"1"--and am still 2" LOW at 50 yards using a POA/POI hold.

To get into the X at 50 yards I's need to come up a few more clicks for a total of 13 or so. Everything I've read seems to say it shouldn't take more than 8 or so clicks for 200. Ted Brown writes :

"At two hundred yards you should be centered with not more than eight clicks or less than four clicks."

How is this possible? On my M25 (built by Ted) it takes 10 clicks to go from a bottomed out "0" to "1" and another 7 to go from "1" to "2" (17 total--and I'm still low!).

So, what I am missing?

Thanks!
 

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Clicks

8 clicks for 100 yards
2 clicks per 100 yards after that it works for me.
At 14 clicks I am on at 400 yards.
M80 Ball Ammo.
Do you have the proper front sight?


Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I certainly hope so.

8 clicks for 100 yards
2 clicks per 100 yards after that it works for me.
At 14 clicks I am on at 400 yards.
M80 Ball Ammo.
Do you have the proper front sight?


Good Luck
I certainly hope I have the proper front sight as Ted Brown built the rifle. Its likely my fault-I'm just not seeing what I'm doing wrong.

From a bottomed out position with the alignment mark on "0" it takes me 10 clicks to get to "1" and another 7 to get to "2". This alone is 17 clicks, so where have I gone wrong? Even if the front sight is wrong, which I doubt, why do I have so many clicks?
 

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Just count clicks

Just count clicks
Forget about the numbers.
Bottom out site
At 8 to 10 clicks from bottom you should bullseye at 100 yards

Good Luck
 

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After bottoming out the elevation knob, you'll find that it may take up to 3 clicks (most often one or two) just to get the peep sight to move. Once you see the sight move, count that as one click and then the numbers posted by botlaudio will work fine. All rifles are different though, so keep track of yours.

The alignment marks are ignored for the most part. When qualifying in the Marine Corps back in 1964, we were never even informed about the alignment marks; we had our dope books where we tracked elevation and windage by clicks only. Elevation was counted from bottom up and windage was counted from the center mark on the receiver.
 

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Just my way of doing things, but I file down my front sights to get POA = POI at 100yds when bottomed out. Then I know that 4 clicks will put me in the X with a 6 oclock hold on and SR-1 at 100.
As 4Quangs mentioned, when we qualified with the M14 in the Marine Corps in 1966, we never used the markings on the elevation knob, just clicks from the bottom per our dope book.
It worked then and has done a fine job for me for 48 years.

Semper Fi
Art
 

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Once you establish your zero or number of "clicks" to get there, be it 100 or 200, etc. you might consider thinking in terms of minutes of angle not clicks or inches for various ranges or wind adjustment. The 'clicks" on GI issue sight, Garand/M14, are 1moa/click and if true NM would be .5moa/click. May not apply to you but in a match with various types of rifles/sights being used and your spotter/coach advises to come up say 2 minutes, various sights have different adjustments and by using MOA individual shooter can adjust the sight accordingly for the number of clicks to get there based on his sight adjustment. Those numbers on the elevation drum are very small and pay no attention to them as mentioned but only the number of minutes it takes to get where I want to the bullet to go. Typical range of come ups for 30 caliber Serv. Rifle are as follows:
100-200 2moa **
200-300 3moa
300-600 10moa
600-800 10moa
800-900 5moa(some use 6moa)
900-1000 5moa(some use 6moa)

If you convert the dimensions of the target face to "minutes of angle" this helps you think in terms of minutes vs clicks.

**These come ups won't put you in the X ring, but most likely will put you on the target face. Some suggest going stronger for the 8-9 and 9-1000 targets, but I would rather hit in the dirt or bottom of target that going over the top and be totally lost as to impact so I could adjust as needed. As you can see some 35-37minutes converted to "clicks" is something on the order of 35-37 clicks for a GI issue sight(1 moa / click) and twice that for .5moa and can get confusing. Most civilian micrometer sights are in .25 adjustments and the number of clicks gets to be hard to keep straight in your head.
Just a suggestion
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
So the clicks/markings are essentially irrelevant?

So the clicks/markings are essentially irrelevant?

I logically thought I should bottom the knob in line with "0". Seemed to make sense.

With a POA/POI setting and 10 clicks from bottomed out I was about 1" low at 25 yards. Need a few more to be "on". Had to stop testing as the range then closed!

Do I assume correctly that I want to be a bit high, say, 1" at 50 yards to be close at 200?

In short, if it takes me, say 13-14 clicks to be 1" above at 50 yards I shouldn't worry about it? If so, maybe I should just move the knob to align with the 1 when at 100 yards just to be close & not worry about where the "0" is at bottom out.

Thanks to all for their help. This is a fine rifle. Never before, even at 50 yards, have I had multiple shots touching on the target. Its obviously better than I am, but am taking my time to become proficient on irons before obtaining a scope.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
This makes sense, but why have the marks at all?

Just my way of doing things, but I file down my front sights to get POA = POI at 100yds when bottomed out. Then I know that 4 clicks will put me in the X with a 6 oclock hold on and SR-1 at 100.
As 4Quangs mentioned, when we qualified with the M14 in the Marine Corps in 1966, we never used the markings on the elevation knob, just clicks from the bottom per our dope book.
It worked then and has done a fine job for me for 48 years.

Semper Fi
Art
This makes sense, but why have the marks at all if they are ignored?

Interesting & logical idea on filing the front sight. I'm generally hesitant to modify anything as whatever touch up I use might not be as rust resistant as the factory finish.

You might have given your age away with a 1966 qualification :) You used these rifles when they were the standard issue. I wasn't even in school yet!
 

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Useless Information

There is no "0" on an M14 elevation knob. There is a tick mark below the 2, which is for 100 meters. You are probably looking at the "10" mark, which is for 1000 meters.

Rear sights "bottom out" differently on individual rifles. It depends on the actual length of the aperature rack and the milled pocket on the receiver.

The rear sight is calibrated for M80 ball ammunition, which is an 150 grain FMJ at 2780 fps. Anything different from this will have a different POI, and each click will not represent 1 moa.

At 50 meters the bullet is climbing and should be about 2 inches above line of sight.
 

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Not all rifles are identical, small variations in parts and machining will make them shoot to a slightly different POI and have different numbers of clicks to get zero. That's why the sights are adjustable, so that they can be adjusted for each different rifle.

When folks talk about "8 to 10 clicks up" they are talking about average numbers for lots of rifles, not your rifle. The only number that matters is what it takes on your rifle, which may or may not be close to the average, just depending on the parts and machining of your specific setup.

Even standard USGI front sight posts vary a little bit in height. Measure the height of your front sight post from the bottom of the dovetail to the tip of the front post with calipers, then go to a gunshow and dig through an M14 parts bin, measure some sights, and find a front sight that is a bit shorter. This will reduce the number of elevation clicks up to get zeroed.

You might be able to contact one of the friendlier M14 parts suppliers and ask them to send you the shortest front sight they have in their bin, they just might be willing to get out the calipers and check for you.

When Ted talks about 4 to 8 clicks, he is talking about the ideal setup for a rifle that is used in matches for long range shooting. The fewer clicks up it takes to get zeroed, the more of the rear sight rack that is down inside the base, therefore the rear sight is more stable, less slop, and that's good for accuracy especially at 1000 yards where the rear sight is way out of the base. You are very unlikely to find a rifle that will zero at 4 clicks up out of the box, to follow Ted's guidelines for match shooting you would usually have to file down the tip of the front post to get to 4 clicks up at zero. Match shooters are willing to do that to get the most out of their rifle for that particular sport.

As for the range markings, this debate comes up often and there are 2 camps: the"markings don't matter, count your clicks" camp and the "sights should be adjusted so that the range markings are close" camp.

Here's my take: If you are shooting in service rifle matches ie NRA or CMP, the markings don't matter. Count your clicks.

If you want the rifle set up as a battle rifle, calibrate the rear sight so that the range markings are correct with whatever ammo you use.

I do both. On every rifle, I will calibrate the rear sight range markings for whatever ball ammo I have on hand, usually Portuguese or South African. That way the rifle is ready to go as a battle rifle. Then during a match, I don't worry about the markings and just count clicks as needed for match ammunition, since match ammo generally won't follow the range markings anyway (different trajectory, heavier bullets.)

Hope this helps.
 
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At 50 meters the bullet is climbing and should be about 2 inches above line of sight.
Hold on...

Your trying to say a bullet goes up higher than the bore line?

This is a myth right?

Obviously it climbs if you shoot up , is that what you meant?
 

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The numbers on the elevation knob are there for battle sight purposes only. They have little relation to pin point accuracy zeros. Shoot a 200 yard target and get the sight adjusted to that range. Loosen the screw on the elevation knob and turn it to the number two where it aligns with the line on the receiver ear. Tighten the screw and you'll have approximate setting for the distances marked. If the 200 yard zero exceeds eight clicks, you'll need to adjust the front sight. Each .008" of blade height changes the zero approximately one inch at 100 yards or two inches at 200 yards. A shorter front sight will result in a lower rear sight setting. Both standard and NM rear sights have one minute elevation adjustments on the knob. M14 knobs are numbered for meters so yards will be approximate when using the numbers. That is why most shooters count clicks for given distances. The numbers will only get you into the ball park...
 

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...
If the 200 yard zero exceeds eight clicks, you'll need to adjust the front sight.
...
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Having approx 8 clicks from bottom to a 200 yard zero is NICE, but needing more clicks won't really make any difference unless you shoot beyond about 600 yards.

WHY?
When the rear sight is at its lowest setting (bottomed out) the aperture is tilted enough so that it appear oval rather than round. It takes about 6 clicks up from bottom for the aperture appears to be round - and it's nice if that is also your 100 yard zero setting. Needing somewhere between about 4 and 15 clicks for 100 yards is not uncommon, and will work fine.

As more clicks are added to for elevation, the aperture rises higher above the stock, and at some point the extra height makes it difficult to have a good head position on the stock and see thru the rear sight - but that is usually when shooting beyond 600 yards.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Good Lord I'm blind!

There is no "0" on an M14 elevation knob. There is a tick mark below the 2, which is for 100 meters. You are probably looking at the "10" mark, which is for 1000 meters.
I really do need glasses..... Couldn't see it was 10! A little embarrassed...

OK, so do I then start at the "11" or "1" at the lowest elevation? In between there is the "M" for meters.

Either way, it took me 12-13 clicks to be "on" target at 25/50 yards. I noticed that that little arrow which protrudes on the knob seems to line up with the mark on the receiver at 12-13 clicks, even though it is at the 3.5 line. Any thoughts?

Assuming this is true, which I will test when I can how do I adjust the rear sight to so reflect this? In other words, what
 

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The m80 bullet should stike 4.6cm high at 25 meters. It is the upper X on the canadian bull target (the lower X is for the M16). You then calibrate your elevation drum to 250 meters.

It is usually about 12 clicks, give or take a few.

This was the standard issue target for zeroing. You put the front sight post under the bull, so that the little white square is visible.

http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Free Targets/25-meter target.pdf
 
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