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Discussion Starter #1
Just wanting to get your opinions on the following news story that was published by CNN:-

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy4WXsp34IU[/ame]

The actual shooting takes place at 1:52, when a soldier, dressed in black, takes a shot at the Palestinians.

The Israeli government insists that this guy was firing rubber bullets, using blanks for propulsion. The Palestinians insist that he, or at least someone, shot at them with live ammo.

The Palestinian that he presumably shot at turned up dead in hospital of a gunshot wound through the torso.

The soldiers are firing rifles with rubber bullet adapters attached. These are basically short six-inch tubes with a half inch bore that are fixed to the end of the barrel. The rubber bullets are cylinders that fit snugly in the extended tube. There is an inner plastic surface with a slight amount of rifling to give the rubber bullet stability for a hundred yards or so. Essentially, the expanding gas from the blank cartridge gives the rubber cylinder enough propulsion to fly out of the barrel at 250 f/s or so.

However, because the rubber bullet adapters are thicker than the bore of the barrel, there is essentially nothing to stop a soldier from firing a live cartridge, at least in theory.

When the first shot is fired by the soldier on the left, there is a plume of smoke from the barrel, and there appears to be a spent casing ejected (can be seen flung upwards just after the shot). However, the soldier, after firing, slaps the magazine, and then cycles the gun by hand causing (another?) cartridge to be ejected.

My understanding is that the rubber bullet attachment, by itself, would not generate sufficient pressures inside the barrel to function essentially as a blank-firing adapter. I have seen blank firing adapters for AK-47s and they are screwcaps that totally seal the barrel off. I don't think that the resistance of the rubber bullet would generate this same pressure. Therefore, presumably if he were firing blanks the rifle would not cycle at all.

That would mean that normally, a soldier would have to cycle the weapon himself, just as if he were firing blanks normally without a BFA. Ergo, if the rifle cycled, he must not have been firing blanks. I suspect that he ejected a further cartridge possibly because he may have been mistaken about firing live cartridges vs blanks.

Forgive me if I am using ignorant terms, I havent had much experience with self-loading rifles at all.
 

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An interesting first post on this board...........

Could be phishing - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phishing

Since you asked for opinions, here's mine. Don't believe anything you see or hear on the Internet. The entire world's population is being "divided" by using reports just like this.

Ponder on a very old American saying - "United we Stand.... Divided we Fall"........

Hobo
 

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Discussion Starter #3
re

Dunno what you mean mate. I'm not from the KGB I can assure you, nor am I out to get your credit card details.
 

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Don't believe anything you see or hear on the Internet. The entire world's population is being "divided" by using reports just like this.

Hobo
Words To Live By...

GI5

CAVman in WYoming
 

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Dude your from Australia. Your countries government is not known for its views on personal liberty and self defense. You have not attempted to introduce yourself. You have not made n attempt to explain your rational for this type of questioning. You may want to do that first.


By the way......how is chopper ried these days?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Dude your from Australia. Your countries government is not known for its views on personal liberty and self defense. You have not attempted to introduce yourself. You have not made n attempt to explain your rational for this type of questioning. You may want to do that first.
Well, I'm 35. An accountant by trade. I like playing classical guitar. My great uncle served in North Africa (my grandfather was in New Guinea) during WW2, though not in Palestine, but he had a large number of friends who served in Palestine in the 1940s. Call it a general interest thing.

Australia? Well, its the only country to have sent troops to Vietnam, Korea, both invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. America's most faithful ally of the past eighty years. All I can say is, if you're nervous talking to Australians, I would pass on talking to anyone from any of the other countries.

To be honest, I basically saw the video and thought, hmm that ain't right. A passing interest really. I didn't intend to upset people and I'm concerned that one chap above seems to think I'm after his credit card details (seriously?). So I'll leave you in peace. Toodle pip.
 

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Funny the "recovered" bullet from the kid's back pack sure doesn't look like an M16 shot from such close range and passeing thru a body.

Maybe a discussion about 5.56mm terminal ballistics is in order...it is in the M16 forum after all.

Don't know why y'all are so up tight about the Aussie's post, though...

JWB
 

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The soldiers are firing rifles with rubber bullet adapters attached. These are basically short six-inch tubes with a half inch bore that are fixed to the end of the barrel. The rubber bullets are cylinders that fit snugly in the extended tube. There is an inner plastic surface with a slight amount of rifling to give the rubber bullet stability for a hundred yards or so. Essentially, the expanding gas from the blank cartridge gives the rubber cylinder enough propulsion to fly out of the barrel at 250 f/s or so.

However, because the rubber bullet adapters are thicker than the bore of the barrel, there is essentially nothing to stop a soldier from firing a live cartridge, at least in theory.

When the first shot is fired by the soldier on the left, there is a plume of smoke from the barrel, and there appears to be a spent casing ejected (can be seen flung upwards just after the shot). However, the soldier, after firing, slaps the magazine, and then cycles the gun by hand causing (another?) cartridge to be ejected.

My understanding is that the rubber bullet attachment, by itself, would not generate sufficient pressures inside the barrel to function essentially as a blank-firing adapter. I have seen blank firing adapters for AK-47s and they are screwcaps that totally seal the barrel off. I don't think that the resistance of the rubber bullet would generate this same pressure. Therefore, presumably if he were firing blanks the rifle would not cycle at all.

That would mean that normally, a soldier would have to cycle the weapon himself, just as if he were firing blanks normally without a BFA. Ergo, if the rifle cycled, he must not have been firing blanks. I suspect that he ejected a further cartridge possibly because he may have been mistaken about firing live cartridges vs blanks.

Forgive me if I am using ignorant terms, I havent had much experience with self-loading rifles at all.
Comparing an M16 and AK-47's ability to cycle is not a valid comparison due to the very different nature of how the rifles operate, weights of the bolts, type of blank, etc.

My search for the adapter for the rubber bullets was unsuccessful, I assume that the rubber bullets are muzzle loaded?

If so and the soldier accidentally fired a live round, I would expect the rifle would have blown up due to a bore obstruction, the rubber bullet.

No one can state for fact that was the bullet that killed him. There was a lapse in the chain of evidence.

That's as far as I'm willing to speculate on this, I'm already too far out on a limb.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Funny the "recovered" bullet from the kid's back pack sure doesn't look like an M16 shot from such close range and passeing thru a body.
There is a better picture of the projectile here:-

http://electronicintifada.net/content/who-made-bullet-killed-sports-loving-palestinian-boy-cold-blood/13422

They claim it is M193 ammunition. The kid was shot at a range of about 80 metres. Even with M193, you wouldnt necessarily expect fragmentation at that range (I think?).

And if it passed through soft tissue without missing bone, well, its possible, but I am subject to correction on this.
 

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They claim it is M193 ammunition. The kid was shot at a range of about 80 metres. Even with M193, you wouldnt necessarily expect fragmentation at that range (I think?).

And if it passed through soft tissue without missing bone, well, its possible, but I am subject to correction on this.
I have seen a few M193 wounds in the past. It was the standard ball in Viet Nam. They do fragment within about 4 to 5 inches in soft tissue. Fackler describes the effects also.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/M193.jpg

The M855 (SS-109) was designed to be a little more "humane".

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/M855.jpg

You be the judge...

M16 bullets will fragment at the cannelure, leaving just the conical tip in somewhat "normal" shape. That bullet is a phony, probably a pick-up somewhere....


In any case, any evidentiary value of the bullet is lost but it is good fodder for the media.

JWB
 

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Perhaps the op thought this was a good place to ask his question.


As for this being phishing scheme....
 

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Discussion Starter #16
My search for the adapter for the rubber bullets was unsuccessful, I assume that the rubber bullets are muzzle loaded?
Correct. Picture of adapter here:-

http://www.mindfully.org/Health/2002/Rubber-Bullets-Israeli-Arab25may02.jpg

Picture of rubber bullet here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Israeli_Rubber_Bullets.jpg

If so and the soldier accidentally fired a live round, I would expect the rifle would have blown up due to a bore obstruction, the rubber bullet.
Correct. That certainly reduces the prospect that it could have been a mistake. He would have had to mistakenly load a live round and mistakenly not load a rubber bullet. Bit of a stretch.

The other thing is, if the muzzle speed of a rubber bullet is only 250f/s, you'd think that it would appear on the film, even if it took video analysis or whatever.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
M16 bullets will fragment at the cannelure, leaving just the conical tip in somewhat "normal" shape. That bullet is a phony, probably a pick-up somewhere
Will they always do that? I remember once when I was a kid we used target range .223 ammunition to kill some rabbits and feral cats. I think it was full metal jacket, someone gave it to us. It punched pretty neat little holes in the rabbits, admittedly this was only from about 40 yards away.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Gentlemen,

It appears an Israeli fellow with much better knowledge than me has already considered the question.

Long answer short: no, the rifle should not cycle if it is firing rubber bullets with blanks. At least thats the impression that google translate gives me and he links to various videos to back up his impressions:-

http://eishton.wordpress.com/2014/05/29/nakba_day_bitunya_shooting_analysis/

He also establishes that the adapter is in fact specifically advertised as allowing live ammunition to pass through it.
 

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To start with its CNN doing the reporting.
They aren't held in very high regard because they fabricate the news.
Why this is pertinent world news is my question.
A gun kills a teenager is meant to pull on the viewers heart strings nothing more that CNN "fluff" news.
 

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The supersonic crack. I can't believe I didn't think of that before. Someone that knows how to analyze an audio recording could determine if it was live fire or even us if we had a copy of the original without the cnn reporter talking.
 
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