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Discussion Starter #1
Fellas,

I have been absent for a while due to a recent move, some related homeownership disasters, and being too busy with work!

But winter has come to the frozen TUNDRA with a bang, I have my house squared away (finally) and my new man cave/reloading room set up and ready to run. So it's time to reload in earnest.

I'm trying to "level up" as the kids say regarding precision reloading.

I think I have a really good system down for brass case prep and uniformity and the same with powder (I use a powder drop to get within 5% of the desired load in grains and then trickle the rest into the scale to get the exact amount).

However, in the past I've only measured COAL on my assembled rounds. My next step is to invest in some new gages so I can check CBTO and HEADSPACE in my rifle. Due to the variance in bullet base to tip length (as opposed to bullet base to ogive) measuring COAL hasn't given me great results.

I want to do this to control the "jump" distance between the ogive and the lands and grooves since the variance in the bullet base to tip length in conjunction with using COAL could give you wildly different Jump distances.

My question for you all is this, Are all bullet seating dies pushing on the ogive or the bullet tip? Or are there certain brands of dies that do it one way vs another?

Sorry for the long rambling question but hopefully you get my drift.

Thanks in Advance
Baldur
 

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CBTO is the best way the metplat profiles are to inconsistent, you will get better, more consistent reloads off the ogive. All you need is calipers and I believe I bought the Hornady comparator set.
 

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There should be an insert inside the seating die that can be replaced with an insert that properly contacts the bullet. If not, I’m sure you brand sells different inserts.
I have Hornady Match dies and the seating die came with 2 inserts. Similar to what was said above, the bullet should be contacted in between the tip and the Ogive of the bullet. Above the bearing surface of the bullet.

Check out this video talking about this very topic.
https://youtu.be/a0KXYPtUh1s
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Capona,

Thanks for the reply. Given the inconsistencies of bullet dimensions overall length, I'm not sure I follow how you can possibly be getting the same COAL & CBTO at the same time?

Not trying to be argumentative, just not following.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
There should be an insert inside the seating die that can be replaced with an insert that properly contacts the bullet. If not, I’m sure you brand sells different inserts.
I have Hornady Match dies and the seating die came with 2 inserts. Similar to what was said above, the bullet should be contacted in between the tip and the Ogive of the bullet. Above the bearing surface of the bullet.

Check out this video talking about this very topic.
https://youtu.be/a0KXYPtUh1s
Dutch,

Thanks for the reply! Going off to watch it now.

Baldur
 

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COAL has to do with fitting inside a magazine and piercing the wind. Other than that, using COAL for precision reloading is useless based on said earlier inconsistencies in the meplate.
If you reload blasting ammo, Measuring with COAL will do.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
DING DING DING!

This is what I suspected but didn't know empirically. Not only would the one on the right allow for consistent CBTO and thereby uniform "jump" distance, but it also has the added advantage of much better concentricity!

Great find Dutch, Now I'm off to try and buy more stuff (grumble grumble)

thanks again!

Baldur
 

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Buy bullets that have less jump by design. I stopped using HRN168M because it always has more free jump for any COAL. Now using only SMK168M.

The SMK has a rounder tip and more straight side wall. I find that it engages the lands some 40thou earlier. And shoots a lot better in my rifles.
 

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Yahoo, it jumps where you want it to jump from. I understand what you mean but until you try different jump lengths, which you have done through testing, buying a bullet because of shape, thinking it will work better with one barrel vs another, makes little sense.
 

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Yahoo, it jumps where you want it to jump from. I understand what you mean but until you try different jump lengths, which you have done through testing, buying a bullet because of shape, thinking it will work better with one barrel vs another, makes little sense.
Dutchman, I thank you for your response.

The throats in most of my rifles are what they are, typically too deep, being military rifles.

My test results shows that:
- To fit in a mag, HRN has about 40thou more free jump vs SMK in my M1As.
- SMK shoots a lot better than HRH with the same COAL.

This is based on my testing, however flawed it may be.

If you could tailor the throat in your rifle, It could be a different result.

What does your testing show?
 

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Yahoo, it jumps where you want it to jump from. I understand what you mean but until you try different jump lengths, which you have done through testing, buying a bullet because of shape, thinking it will work better with one barrel vs another, makes little sense.

Thedutchman,


I tend to agree with Yahoo and have and do look at that myself... Mag length anyone?


MY reloads must shoot out of my 10rd magazine and hopefully go where they are pointed!
 

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Yahoo, I guess I’m misunderstanding what you mean. Would you feel that way if you rebarreled that rifle. Would a different shaped bullet possibly shoot better?
My process would be to get a SMK and measure distance to lands. Test different charges, find one (charge) that shoots well, then mess with CBTO length. Starting @ 10thou off.
Eventually, hopefully, it will shoot.
Maybe I can get better,...goes through my head.

Then I get a Hornady BTHP 168 grain. Obviously the bullet is shaped differently.

Do the whole thing over again.
This is my interpretation of what you mean.

During the process, I learn that each bullet jumps differently and shoots better/worse at different CBTO lengths with different charges,...maybe I get lucky with a charge close to the same, within .2 grains.

My interpretation of your argument is bearing surface of the bullet. The reason I would try a differently shaped bullet.
My argument would be again, I can choose, regardless of shape of bullet, how much jump I want in order to get that/any bullet to shoot.
Unless the darn thing just doesn’t shoot no matter what scientific method is used. That dog won’t hunt kinda deal.

Cheers.
 
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Yahoo, I guess I’m misunderstanding what you mean.
My process would be to get a SMK and measure distance to lands. Test different charges, find one that shoots well, then mess with CBTO length. Starting @ 10thou off.
Eventually, hopefully, it will shoot.
Maybe I can get better,...goes through my head.

Then I get a Hornady BTHP 168 grain. Obviously the bullet is shaped differently.

Do the whole thing over again.

During the process, I learn that each bullet jumps differently and shoots better/worse at different CBTO lengths with different charges,...maybe I get lucky with a charge close to the same, within .2 grains.

My interpretation of your argument is bearing surface of the bullet.
My argument would be again, I can choose, regardless of shape of bullet, how much jump I want in order to get that/any bullet to shoot.
Unless the darn thing just doesn’t shoot no matter what scientific method is used. That dog won’t hunt kinda deal.

Cheers.

Thedutchman,
You may be forgetting the fact that at mag length you may never, ever, come close to the lands in an M14/M1A type rifle without a custom chambered barrel?
Not talking bolt guns here... .20/.40 thou... Bullet shape matters but you are limiting your long range BC
 

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Thedutchman,
You may be forgetting the fact that at mag length you may never, ever, come close to the lands in an M14/M1A type rifle without a custom chambered barrel?
Not talking bolt guns here... .20/.40 thou... Bullet shape matters but you are limiting your long range BC
Copy that!
You’re right, at mag length, find a charge and a bullet that shoots.
In my Loaded, 168 grain Hornady BTHP’s shoot best. SMK’s not so much regardless of charge.
My NM really likes Nosler CC but shoots SMK very well too. It hates Hornady bullets.

Caió
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Fellas,

Sorry for the confusion. I didn't start this thread in order to try and make rounds for the M14 that would have the ogive touch the lands and grooves.

I understand its a detachable box magazine fed semi auto (or fully semi auto if you speak liberal)

My goal was to make rounds that had *consistent spacing from the ogive to the lands and grooves*

That is not something you are able to do if you're only measuring COAL (as in the diagram above) due to the variance between the bullet ogive and meplat.

So just to be clear, no one is saying you can load rounds for the M14 that will have almost nill "jump" to the lands and grooves.

Baldur
 

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Baldur,


I hear you!
I bought and use me a Forester bullet seater that is micrometer adjusted for MY ammo.
I measure coal from base to meplat (sp)? and just average a few and load 'em up!
Am not to worried how far away from the lands they are as long as they are about the same to each other as I try my best to do the same thing with each trigger squeeze!
 
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... My goal was to make rounds that had *consistent spacing from the ogive to the lands and grooves*
...
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Along with consistent 'jump' distance is having consistent neck tension on the seated bullet.

It's another 'incremental improvement' that gives best accuracy.

Jay
 

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Discussion Starter #20
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Along with consistent 'jump' distance is having consistent neck tension on the seated bullet.

It's another 'incremental improvement' that gives best accuracy.

Jay
Jay,

When you contribute to a thread I tend to perk up my ears and listen.

Any pro tips on attaining consistent neck tension?

Best Regards

Baldur
 
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