M14 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now, I am by no means accustomed to firing at 500+ yard ranges. In fact, the longest range I've ever shot at has been 200 meters. Be that as it may, upon inquiring into a new club I was shocked to learn that they only allow one round in the rifle at a time while firing at the 500+ yard range. Is this normal? It seems counter productive to me to get some good battle rifle practice in if you must manually load the roads one at a time. What is the point of having a high capacity semi-auto repeater? Anyway, I e-mail my inquiry to one of the staff and got the following response. I'd like to get everyone's take on it.

...absolutely no one loads more than one round at a time
at 500 and 600 yards....except for practicing for or
competing in a competition called "infantry team
trophy" or "rattle battle". this is only done with a
range officer present. there are coaches, brass
pickers, team captains and a lot of strategy and
expence involved.
in normal cmp/nra matches at 600 yards the course of
fire is 2 sighting shots and 20 rounds for record in
22 minutes. nobody loads more than 1 round at a time
nor would want to. this is much too involved to get
into now, so come out to the range this spring and
begin to learn to become a rifleman.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,057 Posts
:D Roger that Blain, The Slow fire Stage in Service Rifle Competition is Single Load no matter what the Distance! ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Trung Si said:
:D Roger that Blain, The Slow fire Stage in Service Rifle Competition is Single Load no matter what the Distance! ;)
Yeah, but the paranoids running the range don't want anyone loading more than one round at long ranges....ever.


Blain, sounds like the club wants to reduce the number of shots fired "over the berm". What is beyond the range? The club where I shoot allows a full load, but no rapid fire/bump fire bullet hose past 25yds. So long as each shot is aimed, you can shoot as fast as you want. This range seems to be taking it to the extreme, and probly assumes that everyone not associated with range operations is an idiot. Not the type of operation I would want to be involved with. I hate range nazis.

Blain said:
..so come out to the range this spring and
begin to learn to become a rifleman.
Yeah, because real riflemen only use one round :roll:
 

·
Forever Remembered - RIP
Joined
·
3,750 Posts
Probably an insurance issue. My old rifle range made all kinds of new safety rules. The range was on county leased property and a landfill a mile behind it. Some idgot put bowling pins on top of the berm, so of course all his misses went back to the landfill where people were working with heavy equipment. No fatalities but we almost lost our insurance and lease. The solution, no bowling pins allowed at the range. Some one else decided the best way to render the information on his old hard drive was to shoot them. The E.P.A. found them during one of there monthly inspections and made the range pay for well points to see if chemicals & elements other than lead were in the soil. Solution, no interactive targets except the pistol silhouette range. One or two idiots can screw up a whole club. The really sad part was we were planning on putting up a rifle silhouette course in the near future and increasing the rifle range a few hundred more yards. They still had the 100 & 300 yard gongs last time I went. The 300 yard gong has a big sign at the firing line stating"if you can not hit the gong, please do not shoot at it". The sign had bullet holes in it from some other nimrod :roll: . It's a darn shame things have gotten the way they are.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well, it actually gets worse than that.

You must pass qualification to even shoot at the 500 or 600 yard ranges, even as member.

Some of the other "rules".

4. All firing conducted from the 300, 500, and 600 yard line must be from the supported prone position, using a sling or other support.

5.Persons using the 600 yard firing line shall provide their own target that fits within the target carriers. This target must not damage the target carriers. Persons should utilize targets similar to MR (NRA official Target or Reduced 1000 Yard Target).
***No Silhouettes???

7.Only rifles conforming to CMP Service Rifle, NRA High power Match, or “F class” are approved. *Other rifles may be used after obtaining approval of High power range committee member.

Qualification:

1.Demonstrate knowledge of above rules
2.Meet one of the following (circle which one)
a.Present a NRA Long Range High power Classification Card
b.Present a NRA High power Classification Card and proof of 600 yard competition.
c.Qualify during a 600 Yard practice.

To Qualify, Contact _____ to setup a time to provide the above information (or practical demonstration) and to sign paperwork
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
168 Posts
The name of this particular range doesn't happen to be "The Kerry/Fienstein Gun Control Range", does it?

At the 100-600 yd range near me the only shooting restrictions are no full auto, 1 second between shots, and no steel ammo.

I'd say find another range.

01-01-05 I was accepted at a private range with a limited membership. (only 200 members allowed this year) Camping allowed. No electricity. 2100 watt diesel generator used for match or club event days. I think your personal generator can be hooked up to club system to run the shooting line lights. Portapottys. It's only 10 miles north of my house.

Range is gated. Every member gets a key. Open 24 hours. Nite shooting allowed. 100 yd rifle range. 2 pistol ranges. (25 yd and 45 yd). Auto-throw trap and skeet ranges complete with concrete trails. Line with manual clay throwers. Holster carry, drawing from holsters, rapid fire, gun in both hands, OK. No BATF or local law enforcement. Privately owned land. Rented from the DWP for the last 35 years. Well taken care of. No steel ammo though. Just be safe and sane is the "Golden Rule". But everything else goes.

NO "Range Nazis" or A$$holes. (OK, there's ALWAYS an A$$hole. ;) )
But I've been fortunate enough not to run into him so far. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,857 Posts
If you knew how much it costs to replace target frames and trashcans or what it's like being in the pits when some idiot is bouncing rounds off the burm in front of the targets then you might think the rules are pretty reasonable. They run a shooting range built for matches and not a shooting gallery built for anyone with 25 cents to blow.

Since most folks don't have any LR experience, it's probably a good idea to make sure they can at least get their rounds onto the impact area/burm. Unfortunately the lowest common denominator is what you have to plan for (the guy that wants to see if he can hit targets past the burm).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
980 Posts
Depending on where this range is located, those rules don't sound too unreasonable if they have to worry about where any stray rounds may go. Our club only has a 200yd high power range, but becuase of development in what used to be ranchland behind the berms the number one rule at our club is that all rounds must impact the berm. This effects a lot of other restrictions on what kinds of targets we can shoot (paper targets only in approved frames, except on the 25yd plinking range and skeet on the E range where skeet shooting is allowed) and how fast we can shoot (minimum of 1 second between rounds except for skeet shooting and pistols on the pistol range). At longer ranges, a small miss becomes a big miss, so I can see a club that may have neighbors within range of the firing line wanting to ensure that all rounds hit the berm. One stray round can lead to the entire range being closed as a "safety hazard."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
GunnFixr said:
This range seems to be taking it to the extreme, and probly assumes that everyone not associated with range operations is an idiot. Not the type of operation I would want to be involved with. I hate range nazis.

Blain said:
..so come out to the range this spring and
begin to learn to become a rifleman.
Yeah, because real riflemen only use one round :roll:
Yep, that last line was a dig. Tell them to pound salt.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Our problem is city folks moving to the country and then wanting to change the country to the city . Our range is on a large tract of private land and all was well for 30 years until some deveolper bought all of the adjacent land and bulit 3 subdivisions . I have a hard time with people who don't like noise buying houses beside a rifle range . Anyway folks have taken up petitions to city council trying to have us shut down and so far that hasn't worked but it's only a matter of time . We were in the boonies until the city grew up around us .

The legal remedy didn't work so it's dirty tricks now . Last fall a home owner called the law claiming a bullet hit his roof while he was standing in his driveway . The law investigated and found a .38 cal , 158 grain semi-wadcutter , 2 miles from the range . Don't matter how you elevate a .38 it isn't going to travel two miles and the law knew it .

We never had a problem with vandalisim until city council refused to shut our range and now we get our gate locks shot off and the clubhouse shot up .

Law enforcement used to use our ranges until they caved to political pressure from country urbanites complaining about full auto fire .

We've spent a fortune building higher berms and security systems but the subdivision folks will only be happy when we are totally shut down . We ate a poison pill by getting the enviromental folks involved and have had all of the land rezoned and designated as flood plain . That means that we can only keep and renovate existing structures but cannot ever put up a new structure . Neither can any developer in the future as it looks like the devloper that built the subdivisions is pulling the strings trying to have us shut down .

We've found and paid for 640 undeveloped acres 40 miles out farther but with the zoning to floodplain our land is worth nothing and we don't have the money to develop the new property .

I think within the next year the rifle ranges will be shut down , we'll have handgun and shotgun only , and then we'll lose that . The only reason we're still running is because two city councilmen shoot on our property but now that we've lost the police forces , we've lost most of our political clout .

Not far away was a farm that was in the same family for generations . The city folks moved to the country and didn't like the smell of cow manure so they sued the farmer out of existance . He couldn't afford any more legal fees and just shut down .

The urbanites can murder us far faster than we can shoot over the berms and commit suicide .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
980 Posts
Texas has a law protecting existing gun ranges, unless they pose a threat to public safety. Thats why we have so many rules designed to to keep all bullets inside the range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
30Caliber said:
If you knew how much it costs to replace target frames and trashcans or what it's like being in the pits when some idiot is bouncing rounds off the burm in front of the targets then you might think the rules are pretty reasonable. They run a shooting range built for matches and not a shooting gallery built for anyone with 25 cents to blow.
The solution is simple...charge the idiot who damages club property an amount that is 50% higher than that required to replace the damaged property. If they fail to pay, kick them off the range until they do.

Since most folks don't have any LR experience, it's probably a good idea to make sure they can at least get their rounds onto the impact area/burm. Unfortunately the lowest common denominator is what you have to plan for (the guy that wants to see if he can hit targets past the burm).
Sorry, dude. Don't take this personal, but this is sounds like the most elitist bullshit I've ever heard.

To assume that every Bubba with a rifle is going to hose down the area with his duct tapped SKS is just plain wrong headed. I can appreciate the lowest common denomenator factor. I concede that the world is full of idiots, but to limit one round in a rifle, even after forcing a paid club member to qualify to meet an arbitrary standard is a sure way to convince a goodly lot of shooters that finding a more shooter friendly range would be time well spent.

I'm don't shoot LR matches, but I know I can shoot circles around many folks who do. I've only shot one high power match, and I was turned off by most of the snobs present so I never returned.

I would love to find a long range like that in my area. The longest range we have here is 300yds. I have a Marine Corps buddy who loves an hour north and an hour west of me. His club has a 500yd rifle range. Our basic drill is to shoot 5 targets one time each. The targets are @ varying ranges between 200-500yds. One shooter is in the prone while the other acts as the spotter and keeps record of time with shot timer. The spotter/timer calls target numbers 1-5 in random order, and may call one more than once. The shooter engages the target as quickly as he accuratly can. The targets are one minute of angle regardless of range...on ocassion we will use a B27 targets to practice rapid head shots.

In all the years we have done this, I can count the number of times I have missed the 2"-5" target on both hands and still have a finger left over. My friend can do the same and still have a full hand. Neither of us have missed the head of a B27...well, okay, I did once, but my friend spent the morning telling me of his secret weapon that was going to give him the edge in our shoot....it turned out to be an air horn strategicly sounded while I was in the prone pursuing a 300yd head shot....but I digress.

Even with a high level of skill, and even after jumping through this range's hoops, my friend and I would not be permited to engage in our informal competition, and we would have to buy our own lunches.

Range Nazi, Range Snob....

its all the same.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
72 Posts
YOU DONT have to sit there and take it as far them trying to shut down your range.

Are you incorporated?
what is the status of the organization.
A profit or nonprofit?

AS far as zoning issues there is a tremendous amount of state and feederal law out there that protects operations that later become judged to be a "nuisance".
not limited to but including as having to reestablish you at their coast to the same or better position without your nuisance situation.

I have a gunsmith friend who has been in the same business location for over 30 years.
He has a "Duck" and "Buffalo" (yes the military vehicles) out in front of his business. His store front looks like a dilappadated 1800s western store front. That is the look he is going for. He does this huge black powder busines being in the Detrot metro area. He is also one of the best gunsmiths in a 3 county radius.

The world started coming up around him. township told him he had to have his vehicles in a covered building, or he would have to move them from his property. They are part of his advertising. I told him to tell them they are restraining his 1st emandment rights re his advertising. Then a few years later they said he had to get them into a covered structure. They passed an ordinance regarding "implements of animal husbandry or commercial use could not be without a garage or barn. I told him what to tell them. They said he had to do this or that to respond to the NEW township code. Same response told them NO, unles they are paying for everything and HE agrees to it. They leave him alone for another few years.

They want him gone because the area has gone semi-yuppy. The last time he told them he will leave when they buy him a new place of business and pay for all his relocation expenses. (per Spur v Del Webb)

Now the leave him alone.

There are some great court cases out there that give protection to "nuisances" you just need a local atty with some balls to present them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,084 Posts
Here in PA , several of the public ranges , which are owned and operated by the game commision , have issued a 3-shot rule. Seems a lot of slobs were showing up with AKs and SKSs and hosing down the target boards and backstops , causing much damage. Since these or any semi-auto arms are not legal for hunting in PA and these ranges are supported soley with funds from hunting licenses , the 3-shot rule was started. Some rangers get ridules though. I was issued a citation for firing a 5-shot string from a scoped revolver , benchresting at the 50 yd line. All shot were in a 3 in circle , center of target , but I still got the speech and ticket.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
Let me guess..... the club is run by senior citizens, the youngest being just under 90 years young?

99% deer rifle shooters?

A Garand considered "newfangled" when you pull it out?

The problem of the old folks ruining a good thing is ubiquitous, and sad. Most would like to put up signs that say:

"shoot how,what,where, when and why I'm shooting, or not at all."

By what I read in the first post, if you're practicing or training for a competition, you're cool, right?

Shoot a match there, and spend a lot of time 'practicing' for the next one.

Sometimes it's more about what you say you're doing, than what you actually are.

Another fun thing to do at a meeting, is propose a rule to revoke that limitation. When they refuse, introduce a second motion to ban all firearms and ammunition from the club property, as they are deadly, and someone could easily get hurt or killed.

--Fargo007
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
fargo007 said:
Another fun thing to do at a meeting, is propose a rule to revoke that limitation. When they refuse, introduce a second motion to ban all firearms and ammunition from the club property, as they are deadly, and someone could easily get hurt or killed.
Better yet, propose that in oder to ensure a safe time is enjoyed by all, no less than two members are required to handle arms and ammunition on club property. One person will handle the arms, the other the ammunition. At not time will any member handle both at the same time.
 

·
Forever Remembered - RIP
Joined
·
3,750 Posts
I don't think the GOOD range problem is due to old geezers or range Nazis. There are a lot of people that were never taught good safety training or marksmanship skills. The first range I belonged to had me come shoot first before voting me in. I found out later it was because someone had launched a bullet over the berm and into the fish camp/bar/restaurant. They wanted to make sure their members could keep their bullets where they were supposed to go or very close to it. Long distance shooting does require some level of experience. Folks that have never shot past a couple hundred yards think they have a rifle that shoots as flat as a laser beam, not to mention what happens in a 10 mph 3 o clock wind @ 600 yards. Also target stands do get expensive and time consuming; I know, I've spent many hours building new ones and repairing old ones. Who shoots them up? Well, unless there is a R.O. there at all times you don't know. I prefer a range that polices itself, as opposed to one that will only let you shoot when a R.O. is available.
Yes, I have run into old guys, older than me, that looked at my M14's and said assault weapon huh! They warmed up after you got to be known and know them. The nimrod(s) that shot our porta-john up, fire extinguisher and chronically launched bullets everywhere except the berm were never around when I went to the range.
I think a lot of rules are too strict at a lot of ranges, but know that a lot more ranges would be out of business if they didn't tighten up or create some of the rules in effect now. The blame game is easy. The solution is not. The best I can do is teach my grand kids the same ethics I was taught. We always left the range as good or better than the way it was when we got there. If I had the choice & money I would live on enough property to shoot in my back yard, right next to my Bass pond & shoot at the local club for events or just to be around other shooters. I just hope my grand kids have a place to shoot when they are half my age. Just my two cents here. I don't have to like a lot of things, but I have to except things for the way they are. At least I still have a choice of 3 ranges within 40 miles of my home to pick from.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,084 Posts
To join my current club , you have to be sponsored by 2 members in good standing of over 5 years. If you screw up bad enough , you and your sponsors get the boot.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top