[Vanilla]

First off, i have been reading a lot about reinforcing my flimsy SA synthetic stock (loaded model), or purchasing a new stock in the future. While looking over my rifle i have found something interesting and am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how it may effect my accuracy/poi shift.

The stock has very little tension on the front band (not "usually" a good thing, especially if using a standard sling), however i do have a three point sling with a different attachment style that wraps around the whole front of the rifle.

http://www.spectergear.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=140

When I attach this the strap that goes around the stock and hand guard actually pull the stock ferrule off of the front band. Also when i sling it hard, the sling's attachment style doesn't apply any additional downward pressure to the stock/ferrule (it still stays up off of the front band). I don't "think" it is pushing it up against the gas cylinder since there is still lateral movement when i push on the front of the stock.

EDIT: the band may possibly touching the gas cylinder, but if this proves to cause problems i will modify the band and stock for clearance

I am wondering (and soon to be testing once my scope arrives next week) if this will eliminate the change in POI that is usually seen on flimsy stocks when going from prone to a solid slung position. Also if this lack of tension will ruin any accuracy the rifle had (it only has about 1-2 lbs ferrule tension w/o the sling pulling it of the front band), or if that is completely dependant on the specific rifle itself.

Just looking for any thoughts as to what problems this potentially may cause or eliminate maybe??(like i'd be taht lucky) so I can try and test it out on the range in the next few weeks. Any specific areas i should check for rubbing/wear. I'll add some pics later tonight but it seems to be snugging the stock up to the handgaurd which may be problematic.

 

[Lazerus2000]

I will be watching this thread to see what the actual range results tell you.

All the theoretical opinions of what MIGHT happen with "forearm tension" and "barrel harmonics" and "Hand guard clearances interfering with proper movement of the forearm to half circle band interface assembly" are just theories and words.

Take it out and shoot it and tell us what actually happens.

I have spent way too much time chasing theories with frustrating experimentation with fore arm tension and barrel harmonics on conventional stocks. I have even shot an M14 out of an alloy stock that was RIGIDLY and TIGHTLY attached ONLY to the receiver, with the forearm not touching the barrel, no barrel band, and the barrel totally free floating from the receiver forward[ NOTE: this is DEFINITELY NOT recommended!!! THEORETICALLY, having all that massive weight of op rod and bolt reciprocating will cause some barrel/receiver flexxing .... and possibly OVER flexxing and permanent damage ... to the M14 barrel and receiver joint. So, with the M14 rifles, it is highly recommended that you anchor the barrel ... ??some where??].

BUT WHERE???

PERHAPS,
Some where better than the fore arm and the front band?

I have spent a considerable amount of time experimenting with eliminating the forearm/front band as a tensioning device for the M14 type rifleS. These real world experiments eventually lead up to the adjustable for tension op rod "free float" type system on the M14.CA Blackfeather design. A rather complicated and expensive, but yet elegant solution. AND IN REAL WORLD RANGE TESTING, the theories regarding free floating the M14 barrel from the op rod forward can be supported by the range results.

But getting back to the OP's suggestion of wrapping a sling around both the forearm and the hand guard,
Some time simpler, easier, and cheaper really is more better.
KISS.

Maybe wrapping a simple web strap around that whole disgusting mess at the front of the M14 is the simplest way to go?

Only some real world range time will tell us how this theory really works,
So let us know,
Larry Z
[

 

[Vanilla]

I am curious also as to what will happen since my skill with iron sights, although improving, is not good enough to draw any conclusions from. It may take some time to get actual results since i am moving to a new city and new job this wednesday and may or may not get the rifle out before then (scope "should" arrive monday to put on my sadlak), and it may take a few days or weeks to find somewhere to shoot in the new town (hopefully not). I will update as soon as i get some solid results from the range, whenever that may be. The main thing i will be looking for at first is shift in POI between rested and tight slung, since i obviously know there are more things i can do to get the 1MOA groups that have not been done to my rifle yet.

 

[Vanilla]

I have attached some photos, one of the whole rifle, the next is a close up on the front sling attachment, and then the last one is my best attempt at showing the gap between the ferrule and front band (i shined a flashlight from the opposite side to try and help). Please let me know if you cannot see the pictures, this is my first attempt at uploading to this forum.

EDIT: I added a picture of the sling attachment from the opposite side so you can see it better

 

[jkh62]

Shooting it is the definitive test but I would be surprised if your accuracy is great. I have a standard grade M1A with a Winchester military barrel and parts. It shot just OK in the GI wood stock ( 3 1/2 " / 100 yards). I did nothing else but bed it in a Mac stock with more barrel tension and my groups dropped to a solid under 2" at the same distance. I later re-did it again after performing all the NM mods trying to improve on it more but hit the wall. I think I am at the limits of the USGI Winchester barrel which is great IMHO.

For CENSOREDGIfire it and see how it groups. After wrap a big zip tie or duct tape around the gas cylinder to the lower stock and fire again. If the barrel tension is too light accuracy is generally poor or not as good as proper bedding will do for you.

Supposedly true double lug guns with pillars ( front and rear ) can shoot well with minimal barrel tension but I think that is the exception rather than the rule.

I tried to measure barrel tension with a trigger pull gauge but never had consistent values to match to targets but it does make a difference.

 

[Vanilla]

I agree, i do not think that my groups will be under 2" unless i am lucky seeing as all i have done is shim the gas system and this stock is flimsy to begin with. I am curious to see if the poi changes from sandbag to sling since the front band pressure shouldn't change much (if at all) with the way this sling tightens it all together).

On a side note, i did not come up with this idea thinking it would help me out, i just noticed it while reading and looking over my rifle with the sling attached that it pulled the ferrule out of contact with the front band. This may help my consistency from different shooting positions since without the sling the ferrule was removed from the front band just by laying the stock on a sandbag (the factory tension is that light with my specific gun apparently). I will make sure to get some results posted hopefully by tuesday night but it may be later than that.

 

[M1A's r BEST]

Once upon a time I duct taped a couple wraps around my M1A's stock and handguard right at the ferrule. At 25 yds it tightened up my groups enough to get the attention of several other people at the range. Before it was over one or two of them had duct taped theirs up and in at least one other rifle, it also tightened up the groups.

Later, I used a rubber hammer to "tweak" the bottom of the ferrule as my rifle was on the loose side out front. It made a difference in where the group hit on the paper at 25 meters but unfortunately I stopped shooting the rifle when that CMP M1 I use today came along. That CMP (rack grade Greek return) M1 outshot my M1A so badly that I "parked" the M1A in the gun safe.

I need to get it back out and do some shooting with it to see if it worked or if I need to put it back where it was.

 

[Vanilla]

I did get some results but don't ahve time to add pics tonight (im loading up a uhaul to move to a new city).

The groupings with the sling (but not tensioned) on shot fairly well and exceptionally well in one case.

Then when i put hard tension on the sling the groups opened up a "little" bit and seemed to have a horizontal stringing to the left, but not very much. This could have been because the sling was pulling the stock tension right to left, or due to poor follow through by me with a sling pulling on the left side of the stock, but vertically the POI did not change a noticable amount. I am not sure what exactly caused the impacts to move left (about 1-2 inches) but something did and you can draw your own conclusions. I'll post pictures of the most representative groups once i get moved into the new place and the internet connected (probably 2-3 days).