Need help with NFA M-1A repair
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Any licensed gun smith can do the work if it's within their capabilities (I don't weld). You'll need to notify the ATF that you are sending it out for repair and when you get it back. I'd recommend sending a copy of your registration with the rifle. Check with Springfield Armory first since they did build some class III M1A rifles.
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Ted,
Just want to add somethng to what you wrote. IF the gunsmith does not have the proper NFA license, you can NOT leave the gun with him. (Many gunsmiths don't have a Class III license.) To remain legal, the guy can't even leave to go to the bathroom and return in a few minutes, he has to be right there while you work on the rifle, if the gunsmith does not have a Class III license.
I also don't weld and I almost never work on Class III arms for these reasons.
Repair of NFA firearms
According to the current edition of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, a licensed gunsmith may receive NFA firearms for repair and keep them as long as necessary without a class III license. Only a class I is required. The ATF does "suggest" that the owner obtain permission from the ATF by completing and mailing ATF form 5 to the NFA branch and receive approval prior to the delivery. The gunsmith should do the same before returning the firearm. Only the face of the form needs to be completed.
This has been a long held misconception. It seems like another confusing conundrum in ATF regulations. This procedure is not required if the firearm can be repaired while the customer waits.
According to the current edition of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, a licensed gunsmith may receive NFA firearms for repair and keep them as long as necessary without a class III license. Only a class I is required. The ATF does "suggest" that the owner obtain permission from the ATF by completing and mailing ATF form 5 to the NFA branch and receive approval prior to the delivery. The gunsmith should do the same before returning the firearm. Only the face of the form needs to be completed.
This has been a long held misconception. It seems like another confusing conundrum in ATF regulations. This procedure is not required if the firearm can be repaired while the customer waits.
NFA Repair
I would suggest the gunsmith call his /her inspector for clarification.
Hop
This is what I was told by my ATF inspector,and the gunsmith would log it in and out as any other gun brought in for repair.
I would suggest the gunsmith call his /her inspector for clarification.
Hop
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smith enterprises
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(I5) May a licensed gunsmith receive
an NFA firearm for purposes
of repair?
Yes, for the sole purpose of repair
and subsequent return to its owner. It
is suggested that the owner obtain
permission from ATF for the transfer
by completing and mailing ATF Form
5 to the NFA Branch and receive approval
prior to the delivery. The gunsmith
should do the same prior to
returning the firearm.
Only the face of the form needs to
be completed in each instance. ATF
Forms 5 may be obtained from the
Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. ATF
Form 5 is also available on the internet
at www.ATF.gov.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
"Transfer" means keeping it more than one day and that's where the law is open to interpretation. Does a "suggestion" mean a gunsmith is required to complete the forms and send it to BATF before accepting the NFA firearm for overnight repair? Does a "suggestion" mean it is also required a form be sent to BATF before delivering the NFA firearm to the owner after keeping it for overnight repair?
The only thing this "explanation" or "ruling" makes clear is a gunsmith without an NFA license may work on an NFA gun on the single day it is brought in and return it on that same day, without sending forms to the BATF prior to acceptance for repair and prior to delivery after repair.
What the BATF needs to do is make a ruling to clarify their ruling.
an NFA firearm for purposes
of repair?
Yes, for the sole purpose of repair
and subsequent return to its owner. It
is suggested that the owner obtain
permission from ATF for the transfer
by completing and mailing ATF Form
5 to the NFA Branch and receive approval
prior to the delivery. The gunsmith
should do the same prior to
returning the firearm.
Only the face of the form needs to
be completed in each instance. ATF
Forms 5 may be obtained from the
Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch. ATF
Form 5 is also available on the internet
at www.ATF.gov.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
"Transfer" means keeping it more than one day and that's where the law is open to interpretation. Does a "suggestion" mean a gunsmith is required to complete the forms and send it to BATF before accepting the NFA firearm for overnight repair? Does a "suggestion" mean it is also required a form be sent to BATF before delivering the NFA firearm to the owner after keeping it for overnight repair?
The only thing this "explanation" or "ruling" makes clear is a gunsmith without an NFA license may work on an NFA gun on the single day it is brought in and return it on that same day, without sending forms to the BATF prior to acceptance for repair and prior to delivery after repair.
What the BATF needs to do is make a ruling to clarify their ruling.
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I agree SEI, they use a gent whose name is Mike Harlow. Unfortunately I don't think he is going to be welding for at least three to four more months. He has somehow damaged one of his eyes. He is an outstanding welder, you would not even think it was ever broken off. His email is [email protected]. Shoot him an email and se what his status is. I am waiting to send him a receiver myself as well as a couple of gas cylinders. Let me know if he is up an welding again. Thanks
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While some acerbic humour was intended, it was one edge of a double edged sword.
My first run in with the BATF was in 1978 in a buddy's gun shop. Two agents came in and did not identify themselves as agents. One wanted to buy a handgun and he had the state license to buy it and walk out with it without waiting three days. Well, he found himelf "short" about $ 200.00 and his buddy offered to loan it to him. I just happened to be in there that day looking at something. Something just did not seem right and I smelled a rat by looking at their body language and speech, though I was no expert in either. So before my Buddy Mike, who owned the gun shop, took their money: I told him, "Wait a minute, SOMETHING is not right." I looked at the agents and said, "If you are BATF agents, it is time to identify yourselves RIGHT now." THEN they got really wishy washy looking and mumbled something. I told my buddy, I don't know exactly what, but something is wrong with all this. Mike demanded they show identification,they refused and he threw them out of the shop. Neither of us knew they were setting my buddy up for a Straw Man Sale and actually neither of us even knew what one was at the time. However, through happenstance and plain dumb luck, my buddy was saved an expensive court case.
My second run in with BATF was about a year later. Same gun shop and owner, different agents. This time they identified themselves as BATF agents and were "investigating" five of Mike's customers for multiple handgun sales. Well, I was on the list even though I traded in handguns to get other handguns in all but one case. We had exactly two handguns, one for me and one for the wife. That did not matter to them, but they quit investigating me when they found out I was a Police Reserve. While I was glad that stopped their investigation, that really ticked me off -though of course I did not let go on them at the time.
I won't bore folks with things I saw or heard about in the 80's and 90's except to say that on more than one occasion, phone calls to BATF to ask questions were not always given the correct answers. I know FFL dealers who ran afoul of this even though they had called BATF for a ruling on some things and had done EXACTLY as they had been told to do. Every time that happened the excuse given was you can not legally go off a conversation on the phone or even to a BATF agent in person, the ONLY thing that was legal was a written answer from the BATF. A lot of that was from guys who used some M16 parts to build up AR's even though they deactivated the automatic hammers by grinding off the tails and cutting the tails off M16 disconnectors so they could not be used for FA firing. The rifles these guys built of sold could NOT be made to fire even a second shot from one pull of the trigger and there was no intention on their part the rifle be anything BUT a semi auto only rifle.
About four years ago, a younger man in his 30's had a single table at a gun show next to my tables. Though he was selling body armor and I think he had a .22 rifle on the table, he would not sell to anyone who even looked like a gang banger or crook. I spoke with him a little bit and he seemed a very nice guy. A little while before noon, he came back from a smoke break with a 12 ga. pump shotgun he had bought from a guy outside. He said the gun was worth about $350.00 to 400.00 and had told the guy so, but the guy sold it to him for $200.00. Well, he lay the gun down on his table as he was moving stuff around under the table to put it away. Then a guy came up and asked what he wanted for the shotgun. He told the guy he didn't even know if he wanted to sell it and had just bought it. Well, the guy offered $ 360.00 cash and eventually he took it. I did not witness the sale as I had my head in a rifle at the time. When next I looked up, the guy was gone and he stayed gone for quite a while. Eventually the Gun Show Promoter's Crew came over with a guy I did not know and they packed up the guy's stuff. The Promoter's Crew told me the guy wouldn't be back and told me and the guy on the opposite side we could "spread out our stuff" to cover the table.
That was a BATF sting operation as well. Buying the gun was not illegal in Virginia. Had he held onto the gun overnight before he sold it, he would have been fine. But the fact he "bought and sold" the gun in the same day technically meant he was operating as a gun dealer without a license and that's what the BATF agents got him on. The GOOD part of the story was the guy beat in in Federal Court, but it cost him about $ 2,500.00 in lawyers' fees.
So bottom line, I would NOT allow someone to leave an NFA firearm with me overnight UNTIL AND UNLESS I had an EXACT written interpretation from the BATF stating whether or not you HAVE to send in the forms before you take it and before you give it back. I have only fixed four or five NFA arms over all the years and as I said, most belonged to Police Officers. Whether or not I MAY be allowed to keep them overnight for repair is something I won't get into until and unless they make it clear in writing EXACTLY what you have to do. Matter of fact, I probably wouldn't take it in for overnight repair anyway. If I had to order parts, I would send the receiver back with the guy and tell him to bring it back after the parts come in and I can repair and return it to him the same day.
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That is exactly the way I prefer to work NFA guns on the very rare occasions I do so.
It's unfortunate that the BATFE spends so much time purpetrating stings on folks who have no intent on breaking any laws or the BATFE's vague regulations. I personally know of several similar incidents as well. One of my close friends a fellow gunsmith was put out of business over some really ridiculous issues. He was fighting cancer at the time and died shortly after. Pat was a former AMU armorer...
Gun show stings are common. It's always important to play by the rules even if unclear.
Gun show stings are common. It's always important to play by the rules even if unclear.
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About 20 years ago, or a bit longer ago, a guy next to me at the range had a select fire M1A he had just bought. He fired two shots I think (maybe just one) and the selector tab broke off from the receiver.
recommendations, weld it yourself. it is not that big a deal done properly, do some research on building a heat sink, rent a welding machine and practice on a steel plate. no need for the atf or forms then.
mr fisher is correct about leaving the room or even going to the bathroom. technically speaking, from writings on the atf website i have read, it is illegal to even let someone else shoot your nfa registered weapon. including your wife or kids. if you are present and walk to get ammo from the bench for an instant, it is technically out of your control. that is the key phrase here. out of your control. just letting someone else hold it is out of your control. which by definiton requires the proper paperwork. ridiculous really.
this coming week i go to pick up a new in the box, never fired, springfield armory incorporated full auto rifle with my friend. what a beauty she is too.
this is the one that was recently sold at auction. so i did some background work at atf website for verification of the laws and contacted an attorney about a gun trust. these help alleviate many of the grey areas of their convaluted and undeciferable laws.
our local sheriff that must sign off on it to be transfered, told us that they had signed three that same day. who would have thought there are that many nfa weapons in a dinky little town. be careful around here you bad guys, you will get more than you bargained for. lol
mr fisher is correct about leaving the room or even going to the bathroom. technically speaking, from writings on the atf website i have read, it is illegal to even let someone else shoot your nfa registered weapon. including your wife or kids. if you are present and walk to get ammo from the bench for an instant, it is technically out of your control. that is the key phrase here. out of your control. just letting someone else hold it is out of your control. which by definiton requires the proper paperwork. ridiculous really.
this coming week i go to pick up a new in the box, never fired, springfield armory incorporated full auto rifle with my friend. what a beauty she is too.
this is the one that was recently sold at auction. so i did some background work at atf website for verification of the laws and contacted an attorney about a gun trust. these help alleviate many of the grey areas of their convaluted and undeciferable laws.
our local sheriff that must sign off on it to be transfered, told us that they had signed three that same day. who would have thought there are that many nfa weapons in a dinky little town. be careful around here you bad guys, you will get more than you bargained for. lol
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