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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gentlemen,
I've recently hit upon a snag where I was likely spoofed, and because I didn't have the on-board knowledge base, and didn't refer to these boards for a possible answer, I probably purchased a ferrule that was held out as being "NM" when I'm now actually not too sure.

So, here's my thought. How about we test one another with examples of pieces / parts that may or not be National Match. Point isn't necessarily to fool everybody with a really hard one, but rather to illustrate what actually DOES qualify as being a NM part, or modification to parts.

I'll start out... Is this ferrule NM or not?
 

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This may help

Since there are no NM ferrules, only ferrules that have been modified to improve performance of the rifle, if the one you paid for does this to your satisfaction you should be happy.

The Original NM M14's did not have a modified ferrule, that was added later and the modification was done by hand, so no two were really alike. Art
 

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Art I am sorry to say I am going to have to declare shenanigans on ya. They was several runs on these for govt contracts over the years. Ask me how I know? They are all I use on my builds and when I ran out I did a nsn stock number search and came up with a company in FLA that listed them. They were out but gave me the contact info for the last place a run on these was made. I cant remember exactly where but it was in Central Cali along the coast. I know I am not full of details and sound like I may be full of it but they are the real deal. I wound up getting three off GB and one from a member that was still attached to a demilled stock. The last run for uncle sugar as you put it was in 98. I thought I could get some made and called the company. The guy said he would get back to me and when he did I almost fell off my chair. There was a minimum run of a very odd number "42" and the price was $250 each. I felt good paying the price I paid on GB. What you have is the real deal.
 

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Can you post a picture of the ferrule itself? I dont get the game unless its to decipher cryptic military part nomenclature which I certainly cant in a case like this....Not like 82nd's post anyway....
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
jameslawson71 - looks like an ordinary ferrule, grey parkerization which is very fine-grained, and the metal fits my USGI NM stock like it was laser-cut to fit. We can and do find ourselves in positions where NOS USGI parts are still in the factory wrapper, and the vendor won't let you open the package. If we don't "have the numbers" we don't know any better and have to take their word for it. Knowledge is power, and the next best thing would be a database of numbers, IMHO.

The point of the thread is to put up examples (pictures or descriptions) of NM items, like a NM piston, and is this little groove supposed to be here or not... or is this flash hider actually reamed out, or what makes this particular spring guide NM, as opposed to a regular USGI guide, or a commercial one...

82nd, are you saying that by the NSN I posted is a real deal NM ferrule, and that they can go for $250 a pop? If so, then I guess I got a super sweetheart of a deal, as the $39 I paid seemed very high at the time.
 

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jameslawson71 - looks like an ordinary ferrule, grey parkerization which is very fine-grained, and the metal fits my USGI NM stock like it was laser-cut to fit. We can and do find ourselves in positions where NOS USGI parts are still in the factory wrapper, and the vendor won't let you open the package. If we don't "have the numbers" we don't know any better and have to take their word for it. Knowledge is power, and the next best thing would be a database of numbers, IMHO.

The point of the thread is to put up examples (pictures or descriptions) of NM items, like a NM piston, and is this little groove supposed to be here or not... or is this flash hider actually reamed out, or what makes this particular spring guide NM, as opposed to a regular USGI guide, or a commercial one...

82nd, are you saying that by the NSN I posted is a real deal NM ferrule, and that they can go for $250 a pop? If so, then I guess I got a super sweetheart of a deal, as the $39 I paid seemed very high at the time.
I understand that its possible to find oneself in that position. Im just stating I wouldnt be able to do it, if I were not able to see the part, thats all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
FPeel, wow... same part, same month of mfg., even. Same cost, too. But different vendor and not the same venue, either.


EDIT: So... we have one board member and at least two vendors who say that this item is NM. Any others?


Any other NM part descriptions / photos?
 

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I think yiu misunderstood what inwas saying. I licked mine up for 30 each off gb. The shop that did the last run on them wanted to charge me what they charge uncle Sam for them which was a minimum of 42 units at 250 each. My pockets are not as deep as uncle SAMs so I passed up on having them made.
I am at LRB right now checking stuff out I will be more than happy to post up some picks when I get home in a couple of hours.
 

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I have a couple of those ferrules, and they came right out of the wrapper NM modified.

Different lists them in his M14 Item Stock Number list by NSN and part number and shows the application as the NM stock 9392337
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I guess what I'm doing a poor job of is asking that we try to describe for the benefit of the others just what makes this ferrule (other than the NSN) a NM ferrule, or what makes these sights NM, etc.

Thanks for the clarification, too. I feel better in that I didn't get soaked, but was in the ball park on price.
 

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If you look at a standard ferrule from the front, the opening for the gas cyl is a "U" shape with straight sides. The NM ferrules have an opening that is sort of "pear" shaped, the opening is hogged out much larger at the bottom to make sure the gas cyl doesn't bump or rub. This used to be a NM modification done by the armorer with a Dremel or a file on a standard ferrule... The new part with the NM NSN comes from the factory already made with the NM opening, so it's an NM part. GI6
 

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You missed the point,

Art I am sorry to say I am going to have to declare shenanigans on ya. They was several runs on these for govt contracts over the years. Ask me how I know? They are all I use on my builds and when I ran out I did a nsn stock number search and came up with a company in FLA that listed them. They were out but gave me the contact info for the last place a run on these was made. I cant remember exactly where but it was in Central Cali along the coast. I know I am not full of details and sound like I may be full of it but they are the real deal. I wound up getting three off GB and one from a member that was still attached to a demilled stock. The last run for uncle sugar as you put it was in 98. I thought I could get some made and called the company. The guy said he would get back to me and when he did I almost fell off my chair. There was a minimum run of a very odd number "42" and the price was $250 each. I felt good paying the price I paid on GB. What you have is the real deal.
82nd. Ox mask is require above ground level in NY.

I did not say NM Ferrules can not be purchased or that some company does not make them and mark them NM.. If you take a few minutes and read the History of Springfield Armory, you will discover the facility closed late 1960's. All M14's built to Match specs after that were built in other facilities. Even if they added NM somewhere on the rifles they are not "National".. I admit it is a fine and unpopular point but that does not change the facts. So there. Come to Texas. we have a place that sells NM Bar b Que.. art
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
If you look at a standard ferrule from the front, the opening for the gas cyl is a "U" shape with straight sides. The NM ferrules have an opening that is sort of "pear" shaped, the opening is hogged out much larger at the bottom to make sure the gas cyl doesn't bump or rub. This used to be a NM modification done by the armorer with a Dremel or a file on a standard ferrule... The new part with the NM NSN comes from the factory already made with the NM opening, so it's an NM part. GI6
Super explaination... here's the picture from the GB listing, for those of us who are more "visually" oriented...

 

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82nd. Ox mask is require above ground level in NY.

I did not say NM Ferrules can not be purchased or that some company does not make them and mark them NM.. If you take a few minutes and read the History of Springfield Armory, you will discover the facility closed late 1960's. All M14's built to Match specs after that were built in other facilities. Even if they added NM somewhere on the rifles they are not "National".. I admit it is a fine and unpopular point but that does not change the facts. So there. Come to Texas. we have a place that sells NM Bar b Que.. art
Interesting position Art, I want to understand more clearly...

I agree that just because a gun part has "NM" stamped on it does not make it truly USGI National Match. Example would be a Wilson barrel on an SAI Loaded M1A, where SAI stamped "NM" on the barrel. That doesn't make that barrel an original USGI NM part.

On the other hand, something like these ferrules... they have their own part number 9352720, which means they also have their own separate drawing. Assume for a moment that on the drawing, the end use is specified as National Match M14. Also, for the sake of argument, assume that those ferrules were made on government contract as replacement/repair parts for original NM rifles, as well as for the building of new match rifles. Does that not make it an NM part?

Or are you saying that the only true National Match parts are those that were originally installed at Springfield Armory on the original contract run of National Match rifles?

Were the TRW NM rifles not NM? Or, if the NM rear sights on an SA NM rifle wore out and the armorer replaced them with new USGI contract NM/2A sights, are those sights no longer NM? GI7

I understand your point I think, which is to stop the slow slide of the term "NM" to mean anything, and therefore nothing. FRG1
 

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Trying to get my head around this... It sounds like you are saying the term "NM" should be applied based on the history of the particular part, not its specifications.

So for example, an SAK barrel made in 1967, drawing no. 7791362 (NM tolerances, non-chrome lined...) would not be an original NM part because it wasn't on an original SA NM rifle. It might be more accurately described as a "USGI contract part manufactured to NM specifications."

Does that come close?

Do they serve NM beer with that NM bar b cue? GI7
 

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M14NM Parts

At the time Springfield Armory in Mass. was closed by order of Mr. Macnamera the only parts being manufactured and identified as NM for the M14 were the barrels (standard weight), stocks (beefy and inletted for bedding, but otherwise standard size), and sights.

After SA closed, NM rifle rebuilds were done by Rock Island Armory and military armorers at various locations, like Quantico and Ft. Benning.

Civilians got the upper hand when heavy barreled M1A match rifles came about. The military had to change to be competitive and introduced medium and heavy barrels, oversized stocks, along with M852 ammunition. From 1980 to 1993, when the competition service rifle became the M16, the M14NM rifle was at it's pintical as a match rifle. It even beat out bolt action match rifles during the National Championships at Camp Perry.

Even so, the only parts identified as NM were the barrels, stocks, stock ferrule, and sights. Other parts like the trigger group, gas sytem, and op rod spring guides were armorer modified to improve accuracy and function.

I am still able to obtain NM stock ferrules, athough requiring a little more labor, modifying a standard farrule works just as well.
 

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I stand corected Art and I will take you up on that NM steak only if I can take you out to the NM golf course of your choosing. I have to warn you though as usual at the end ofthe season my game is on fire. To bad I can't play all year long. It always takes a couple if months to get my game back and before you know it the seasons over. Sorry if I came across the wrong way.
Once again you and Ted have straightened me out. Your right though I should have paid closer attention to exactly what you wrote. Sorry the last thing I want to do is upset the cactus comet!
 

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Seeking an open mind...

Govt. contract is a term anybody can use, as is NM. My position is:" When it is common practice to pay more for parts or completed rifles that carry these two terms thinking you are getting what the terms imply is misleading to both the buyer and to someone that may buy from that owner".Language is important...

The NM M14's that were assembled at the Original Springfield Armory had several parts that were made special for accuracy, The barrel being the most common. The Receivers were hand selected for perfection. The rear sight NM parts were M1 NM parts at first, later made special for the M14 before the National Match program closed. I don't recall about the front M14 NM sights, but suspect the same. That was all the NM parts used on original NM M14's, everything else was modifications to improve accuracy or hand selected. Much of this program was taken from the knowledge base used building NM Garands. The NM M14 program only operated for a few years, and was considered unsuccessful by competitors, even though the new mods were being introduced each year''. The rifle was not popular, and few were purchased..

The original NM M14's, which I have fired, competed with, inspected, broken down and studied, had very few mods, none to the ferrule, or flash suppressor or Hand Guards. The National Match M14's had NM barrels, selected receivers and tightened NM sights, these were the only special NM contracted parts. The rifles had very modest bedding, a trigger job and that pretty well covers it. The rifles I inspected did not even have the stock liners cut, the thin layer of bedding in this area soon fell out. Hand guards were not fixed, ferrules were not modified, the hand guards often contacted the stock, accept by chance. There were no unitized Gas systems, no shims, or round opt rod spring guides... They simply were not very good and did not perform well, however, they were better that the Rack grade M14's, many competitors believed this was only because of the barrels. I agree, well, the trigger jobs helped.

After the M14 NM program closed, the Service rifle Teams continued to improve the rifles but not in a National Facility with a National budget and staffed by specialists, The Service Teams, people like Gus Fisher and Bill Donovan developed new mods. companies were hired to make parts with the mods built in, like the ferrules, liners, stock routing, bigger stocks, fiber-stocks, round spr. guides, heavy barrels, and so on. My point is, I am not saying these after the fact NM parts being sold are not as good or even better, Sadlak's Spring guided certainly is, but this happened after the National Facility was defunct. Therefore, using the term National is incorrect and proving costly. Maybe it is another PC term we are accepting..

Now, along comes what we call "The Devine M1A", thank you Elmer Ballance, Many of Elmer's M1A's were Match Conditioned M1A rifles with original NM parts, barrels and sights, but gentleman that does not make them National Match rifles..

To those that would rather believe they have a NM whatever, I salute you, carry on. Art
 

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That was well said and it makes a lot of sense. Unless yiu have an M14 that was built along those limes all we really have these days are what you call match conditioned rifles. So moving forward that is how I will describe what I built. It's too bad they were not as big a hit back then than they are now. Thank god that the men like Gus continued to develope the rifle to what it has become so common place today.
 
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