I wouldn't call it a race gun technique....I think it is an evolvement from competition shooting ...and those guys don't do it just to feel good. It's a winning technique and it works for them and as I said before, I do weight training so I can do it and it adds to my option list. See..you say it puts stress on you whole arm while it is comfortable for me. I have my support arm out straight and to pull in, I twist to bring my left shoulder back at the same time pushing forward with my right hand and shoulder on the pistol grip... With a mag hold or AFG or vertical grip, when I pull back, I put stress on my elbow( tennis elbow)...
My Socom 16
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I'm curious, how do you hold a SG?
Btw, have you studied how those in combat hold their M14?
I wouldn't try and take how folks hold a AR and try to transfer that to a M14. That dog don't hunt.
The M14 is more like a SG, not a AR.
Not to mention, helping controlling the recoil.
I see holding the AR that way( at the mag), as it hardly recoils, but to hold a SG or high powered M14 that way is useless in controlling recoil.
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I shouldn't have mentioned the AR , i was referring to laz's comment. (on the m14)
the grips whether AFG vertical or forward hold don't reduce recoil...they are techniques or accessories that are supposed to speed up the handling characteristics of a given weapon....and are typically for short barreled rifles utilized in close quarter tactics......I don't see AFG's or vertical grips on full sized m1's or m1a's. I sure some one has tried it. so...recoiling recoil is holding in snug in the shoulder pocked,leaning into it....and grin if it stings.
the grips whether AFG vertical or forward hold don't reduce recoil...they are techniques or accessories that are supposed to speed up the handling characteristics of a given weapon....and are typically for short barreled rifles utilized in close quarter tactics......I don't see AFG's or vertical grips on full sized m1's or m1a's. I sure some one has tried it. so...recoiling recoil is holding in snug in the shoulder pocket, leaning into it....and grin if it stings.
Yes, I meant muzzle flip......but if you held the M1A with just your trigger hand and fired, you'll feel one type of recoil and muzzle flip.....then hold two handed, at the mag and you'll feel another, different, recoil and muzzle flip....then hold two handed, out by the sling swivel, still another, different recoil and muzzle flip. The name of the game is to get it on target and keep it there, shot after shot.
We have a COF that we call the Grinder( or the Swinger), that tests this very thing. We have 4x8', free standing partitions( most ranges do) to simulate walls. We run them parallel to each other( about 5-6' apart), from the starting point( of the firing line), down range. We'll put 2, then a space( on either side) and then 2 more, then a space, then 2 more, so that you end up with a "hallway". Now, at the spaces and 45deg off that, we put 2 targets, sides by side, about 15 yds away, so that when you start at the starting point and walk down that "hallway", you come to those openings and see 2 targets at the 45, on either side and 4 side by side, down at the end.
So the COF is , at the buzzer, quicky walk( or run) down to the first opening, swing up and put one in each target on one side( doesn't matter which side), swing over and put one each in the other 2 and then swing back and put one in each of the first two and then swing back and put 2 more in the second two, so that all 4 targets get 2 shots each. Then quicky on down and do that again at the next opening......Then, down at the end is 4 targets, side by side, you put one in each, Done.. 12 targets, 20 rnds, if you use 10 rnd/mag, you can add a mag change.
Score is for time and accuracy.
This will tell you where to put your hands.
I guarantee that right after the first string( maybe sooner), most hands will spread out.
I think you have better control with the hands spread apart...and the faster you need to muscle the muzzle, the farther you support hand will be....you can use your forward sling mount as a grip ...put the sling between your middle and ring finger..palm up and hold the forearm as you would normally with your thumb pointing forward at the intended target. can use your thumb to aid in pointing at target....ala magpul style.. If you want to burn more ammo.....same COF......all failure drills...mandatory mag change ...cheers
Agreed...Well, that's what the AFG is for....LOL
what I was getting at was that where you have your AFG is where I generally hold but if I wanted to extend my hold farther out, I would use the mounted sling itself...sorta like a two finger AFG.
Oh, ok,,,,,,, well my AFG is out as far as I care for it to be, with this rifle.... if I want to get out farther, Id be grabbing gas cylinder. LOL
I saw a rail that had a swivel built into the end of it, so I coulda put it out to the ferrel, but didn't wanna get into that.
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2,751 Posts
Reality VS Gaming???
I hear you!
As an ex-infantry officer, I was never really trained as a DOOR KICKER / CQB type, but I got the basic Canadian version of REAL WORLD rifle and pistol handling beat into me pretty thoroughly.
As a long time IPSC competitor, and 3 gun competitor, I learned a few tricks of "GAMING" that did indeed help improve my scores in a match, but which were of dubious use in a real world shoot out. I eventually stopped shooting IPSC all together. I was becoming concerned some of the tricks and techniques and habits I was picking up in IPSC might just get me killed if I ever got into another real world confrontation where guns came out.
And for me, "practical" shooting has always been about practicing for the real thing, not collecting trophies.
I am too old and too slow and too fat these days too worry much about gun fighting as my cause of death. Statistically, I'm much more likely to be planted by a heart attack or a stroke. But I still some times pick up a gun and pretend I am practicing for the real thing.
When I pick up a rifle, I still hold my left hand just in front of the magazine.
When I pick up a pistol I still use a WEAVER stance.
Sometimes,
especially for the old dogs,
the old tricks are still the best.
YPMMV
[
LAZ 1
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I hear you!
As an ex-infantry officer, I was never really trained as a DOOR KICKER / CQB type, but I got the basic Canadian version of REAL WORLD rifle and pistol handling beat into me pretty thoroughly.
As a long time IPSC competitor, and 3 gun competitor, I learned a few tricks of "GAMING" that did indeed help improve my scores in a match, but which were of dubious use in a real world shoot out. I eventually stopped shooting IPSC all together. I was becoming concerned some of the tricks and techniques and habits I was picking up in IPSC might just get me killed if I ever got into another real world confrontation where guns came out.
And for me, "practical" shooting has always been about practicing for the real thing, not collecting trophies.
I am too old and too slow and too fat these days too worry much about gun fighting as my cause of death. Statistically, I'm much more likely to be planted by a heart attack or a stroke. But I still some times pick up a gun and pretend I am practicing for the real thing.
When I pick up a rifle, I still hold my left hand just in front of the magazine.
When I pick up a pistol I still use a WEAVER stance.
Sometimes,
especially for the old dogs,
the old tricks are still the best.
YPMMV
[
LAZ 1
competition improves the breed....whether it be for a trophy or your scalp.....I would venture to say that every technique you use today is a result of adopting a technique developed from competition....and the technique will die if the race gun guys don't win with it....some have a long life...like ..go prone if you can....
pick your philosophy......"Never to old to learn" or "Can't teach an old dog new tricks"
pick your philosophy......"Never to old to learn" or "Can't teach an old dog new tricks"
Wait, JUST in front, like to the stock? You don't "hold on to the magazine"?And for me, "practical" shooting has always been about practicing for the real thing, not collecting trophies......
When I pick up a rifle, I still hold my left hand just in front of the magazine.
When I pick up a pistol I still use a WEAVER stance.
Sometimes,
especially for the old dogs,
the old tricks are still the best.
YPMMV
[
LAZ 1
Btw, if you practice realistically, then why not one handed, weak hand, on the ground, going to cover, holding a kid or pkg, malfunctions, ditch primary gun and pull BU gun, etc?
Just sayin'.......
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