My Socom 16

10476 Views 54 Replies 10 Participants Last post by GeneCo, Mar 24, 2012

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · Feb 26, 2012 (Edited)

6

Recently got a Socom 16 and wanted to do a Scout configuration ala Col Cooper( I've wanted to for a LONG time) and make it as reliable( and accurate) as possible.

We have hogs and gators and bear( oh my!), so this will fit that bill.

I put a long eye relief 4X32 NCstar scope on it, got some CMI SS mags( Florida humidity) and a Blackhawk cheek pad. Mag carriers are kydex, from SKD. The sling is from T.I.S. http://www.tacticalintervention.com/

Now, afa reliability, I did a little trigger work- I replaced the stock hammer and extractor with forged ones. I polished up the front hooks of the hammer and the matching surface of the secondary sear.

What that does is give me a nice, smooth trigger pull. I didnt mess with the back hooks and primary sear, as I want a solid hook up there( catches the hammer when, if you hold the trigger back after a shot). I put a Chrome alloy spring in, so the perceived pull is lighter, but mainly it's a smoother and cleaner break.

I also polished up the front face( where the bolt hits it in recoil) and the side( that rubs against the housing and safety) and it's mating surface.

I greased it all up and it's nice and smooth.

I also polished up the runner where the op rod rides and the face of the mag catch/release, so the mag goes in /out good.
=================================================

Then, inspired by Lazerus, I decide to add a pistol grip to it. I cut the back off and matched a Choate pistol grip from a Winchester Mod 1200 to it

So this is the result

I shimmed the GC, but there's still 1/8" gap when the gas plug hits the piston(when screwing it in), so now I need another piston, or find someone with a lathe to take it down.

Also, now am looking for lighter loads for CBQ work.

See less See more

Reactions: 1

21 - 40 of 55 Posts

Lazerus2000

· #21 · Mar 7, 2012

How is that AFG working out for you??

Just out of curiousity,
what length shirt sleeve do you have??

I tried the AFG my self on our new Alloy EBR stock,
and while I liked the angled fore grip concept,
I found AFG was located too far forward to balance properly for me on a shorty 14.
It actually slowed me down on my CQB practices.

I still use a "Magazine hold" for ALL my rifles, even my shorty AR 15. I've been told this hold is obsolete and not as ergonomically efficient as some of the newer CQB optimised fore arm holds. I guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur ... I still shoot genuine Weaver stance with my pistol, and most of the other younger [ and faster shooters ] seem to have gone to the Isosceles stance.

Oh well,
at my age I'm getting too old and set in my ways to change easily.

And realistically,
I'm way more likely to die of a heart attack or stroke [ hopefully during sex ] than any Zombi attack,
so I guess I'm still good to go.
[
LAZ 1

See less See more

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #22 · Mar 7, 2012

Mocos said:
when you say "muzzle flip" I assume you mean muzzle rise....you should be drilling out the top ports and I would do it with incremental sized drills..and don't do all the holes at one time....I would suggest in pairs. I posted pictures of it here...search "hopco" or "socom" and it will pop up.

Yeah,. but didn't you say you messed up and if you had it to do over, you'd just do the sides?

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #23 · Mar 7, 2012 (Edited)

Lazerus2000 said:
How is that AFG working out for you??... I found AFG was located too far forward to balance properly for me on a shorty 14....It actually slowed me down on my CQB practices.....I still use a "Magazine hold" for ALL my rifles, even my shorty AR 15. I've been told this hold is obsolete and not as ergonomically efficient as some of the newer CQB optimised fore arm holds. I guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur ... I still shoot genuine Weaver stance with my pistol, and most of the other younger [ and faster shooters ] seem to have gone to the Isosceles stance.

Oh well,
at my age I'm getting too old and set in my ways to change easily.

And realistically,
I'm way more likely to die of a heart attack or stroke [ hopefully during sex ] than any Zombi attack,
so I guess I'm still good to go.
[
LAZ 1

Works great....in 3 gun, the faster folks hold out as far as they can, for fast muti target aquisition. That's what works for me....speaking of balance, my SOCOM 16 balances just in front of the mag( how many folks balance their M1A?), so right there( where I have the AFG) is max control for me. Keep in mind, I'm holding the pistol grip, that pushes the center alittle forward, so that the AFG is just forward of center.

BTw, not worried about zombies, but if a raging mad 300lb feral hog with 6" tusks or mamma bear with cubs charges me from the brush, I want to be able to control that rifle, get it on that noggin and put several rounds into it before it gets to me.

AFA pistol, I practice one hand, off hand and from the hip, as that's more realistic for me.... and I use laser, too.

Mocos

· #24 · Mar 7, 2012

GeneCo said:
Yeah,. but didn't you say you messed up and if you had it to do over, you'd just do the sides?

I modified it to become a brake and initially drilled them all out to allow for the greater volume of trapped gas to exit through the ports. My first outting the muzzle would depress (down) 3-5 inches.....then I just enlarged just the second and third rows ...still depressed 2-3 inches.....then did just the third row but angled slightly downward...almost there.....then tapped all the top holes and will plug in pairs with set screws..tryout this weekend...

so...in your case since you want to keep the muzzle down, I would do only the top holes...the second and third rows are angled upward but doing the top would keep the muzzle down drilling out fewer holes. I don't know how much of a rise you want to be neutralized. Mine is different because I hogged out the inside of the compensator to make it a brake and the gas pressure is much greater.

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #25 · Mar 8, 2012

Mocos said:
so...in your case since you want to keep the muzzle down, I would do only the top holes... .

I don't know, I don't want to lose my sight picture. If you push on somethnig at the 45deg, it's the same as pushing from the very top.

Mocos

· #26 · Mar 8, 2012

GeneCo said:
I don't know, I don't want to lose my sight picture. If you push on somethnig at the 45deg, it's the same as pushing from the very top.

that's a reasonable assumption.....the top ports angle are still angled away from vertical but more toward vertical than the second and third rows..... In my experiment I got too much down force and after drilling out the 2n & 3rd rows, it dips 1-2 inches and it is interesting in that I maintain sight picture all the time because of the muzzle dip. A couple of things comes to mind is that a rising muzzle sometimes creates a bad shooting habit of lifting your head upon firing and peeking to see your impact....the other is that the muzzle rise is actually caused by the the shooter's upward pressure on the forearm, particularly if the rifle is muzzle heavy. Another thing is the your AFG could contribute to muzzle rise depending on how you grip and apply pressure to it....the angle is conducive to a upward motion...if it were a vertical grip, I think it would be neutral....anyway just some thoughts

Reactions: 2

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #27 · Mar 8, 2012

Mocos said:
that's a reasonable assumption.....

Also, I's refering to losing sight pic from flash blindness, fire coming out the top.

Lazerus2000

· #28 · Mar 8, 2012

Very interesting ...

Mocos said:
that's a reasonable assumption.....the top ports angle are still angled away from vertical but more toward vertical than the second and third rows..... In my experiment I got too much down force and after drilling out the 2n & 3rd rows, it dips 1-2 inches and it is interesting in that I maintain sight picture all the time because of the muzzle dip. A couple of things comes to mind is that a rising muzzle sometimes creates a bad shooting habit of lifting your head upon firing and peeking to see your impact....the other is that the muzzle rise is actually caused by the the shooter's upward pressure on the forearm, particularly if the rifle is muzzle heavy. Another thing is the your AFG could contribute to muzzle rise depending on how you grip and apply pressure to it....the angle is conducive to a upward motion...if it were a vertical grip, I think it would be neutral....anyway just some thoughts

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I used to build comps for IPSC pistols, and one of the things I tried to do was get the shooter's input on how he liked "THE FEEL". Various shooters preferred various "FEELS" to their comps. eg: an A class shooter who had mastered grip and stance and worked the trigger faster, might not like TOO MUCH muzzle flip reduction as his double tap second shot would be timed such that it was LOW!!

A pistol is much more sensitive than a rifle when it comes to "FEEL", but MOCOS has described some of the things that can contribute to how well a muzzle device can work and be tuned to FEEL exactly right for that one rifle shooter.

One trick I use on my rifle comps is to set the porting up rotated off about 5 - 10 degrees to the right, so the comp effectively pushes the barrel LOW LEFT. Since an un-modified rifle, shot by a right handed shooter, almost invariably throws the second shot of a double tap HIGH RIGHT, setting up the comp to throw LOW LEFT works out quite well for most right handed shooters.

I also like to use TWO sets of ports, angled upwards off both sides, to give a more stable V block effect with the downward push. This is usually much more consistent than a single port at the top pushing down and sort of "wiggling" as it pushes. As a serendipitous side effect, the gases ejected at an angle to the top don't stick around blocking your sight puicture ... which actually helped me come close to the best time on one particular stage at Canadian IPSC Championships one year ... even though I was by no means a great shooter. That particular comp was just set up perfect for that particular stage.

So,
there can be a TREMENDOUS range of what is desirable in FEEL of a muzzle device. However, all such attempts to measure FEEL must remain SUBJECTIVE and based on personal preferences.

To measure simple recoil reduction, a human shoulder can feel some differences, but a scale is more scientific and accurate and OBJECTIVE. In my personal subjective testing, I've found a good M14 compensator, on a short barreled M14, shooting 7.62 NATO BALL ammo, feels about like an SKS shooting 7.62 X39 Russian ammo. In other words a VERY SIGNIFICANT reduction in felt recoil is immediately noticable.

To measure muzzle rise objectively, a graph drawn behind the rifle, and a video camera can measure this parameter. I tested three comps and two flash hiders last year on three different M14 rifles, all with the forearm resting on a sand bag ... with NO forearm support other than the bags. Of course, measured subjectively, muzzle rise is affected by things like weight of the rifle forward of the balance point, barrel length, fore arm grip used, stance, etc.

But recoil and muzzle flip are only two of the balls you are juggling when you start playing around with muzzle devices on an M14. You also have to juggle muzzle FLASH, and muzzle BLAST. How you draw the line between recoil, muzzle rise, muzzle blast, and muzzle flash, is where it gets complicated ... and interesting.

And eventually, you end up back at the PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, the subjective point of view rather than the objective point of view ... that THIS muzzle device just simple "FEELS" right for you.

I am in the process of designing a compensator SPECIFICALLY for M14 shorty rifles. I've played around with dozens of different comps on dozens of different shortified M14 rifles, and now know pretty well what "FEEL" I like best. But of course, when it comes down to what YOU will like best,
YPMMV.

And the only way to really know what you like best is to try several different designs, to see if the designer drew the lines between recoil / flip / blast / flash, where YOU like them.

Just some thoughts on the subject from a guy who has BTDT a bit already,
TTFN
[
LAZ 1

See less See more

Reactions: 2

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #29 · Mar 8, 2012

Agreed, I shoot 12 ga semi rapid fire alot and I'm a big guy( 6'1", 250lb), so I can take recoil pretty good. Add to that competition and adrenaline and focusing on getting on target and getting a good score, etc, most recoil isn't "felt" until later.

Handgun and rifle recoils are apples and oranges( you hold the hangun behind the center, but the rifle you can hold front and back), imo, but the basic principles are the same. Another thing in the recol equation is the weight and resistance the rifle encounters, there are some folks who "hold fast" to the rifle and counter it, while others "recoil" with it, perceiving less recoil.

Compared to a 12 ga, the M1A is somewhere between that and an AR, but my main focus for this gun is the ability to get follow up shots quickly, out of necessity, So muzzle flash is more important to me than flip or recoil, I just felt that doing something to the FH would make it more,,,mine.

Btw, I just got some S&B 147gr and the felt recoil( and flash) is reduced even more....I think I found the round for this gun.

See less See more

Lazerus2000

· #30 · Mar 8, 2012

Just a slightly different perspective ....

OK,
now that you have your SOCOM 16 all set up the way you like it,
I'll throw you a curve ball ...
[

Back when I used to compete in three gun [ actually 4 gun cause we always included a revolver friendly stage and encouraged revolvers ] I shot the rifle stage with an 18.5" barreled GENUINE AR 10. I wasn't the best rifle handler around, but I usually won the rifle stages because my rifle was optimised for that particular game. For fast handling MAJOR caliber fast / close CQB type shooting, I have never found anything as good as a short barreled AR 10.

A properly modifed shortified M14, with a pistol grip and a straight line stock and a good comp can come close, but believe it or not, I found the stock and the pistol grip had more beneficial effect on fast close shooting than did any comp. So all my M14 shorties, and my new M14 alloy EBR stock end up looking a lot like .... you guessed it ... an AR 10.

In addition to the excellent ergonomics pioneered by the AR 10, the OLD ORIGINAL GENUINE AR 10 had a bigger diameter bolt carrier at the back than do the newer AR 10s, which use an AR 15 diameter buffer tube, and make the back of these bolt carriers smaller, to fit inside the AR 15 tube. The original AR 10, with that heavy bolt carrier reciprocating back and forth at each shot, had very low recoil and very little muzzle rise. The lack of muzzle rise came from the STRAIGHT LINE stock and, as I found with the M14 when properly modified, from the pistol grip acting as a recoil absorber and enhanced recoil control point. But that heavy bolt was also an effective muzzle flip control device, as the heavy bolt coming forward seemed to be timed perfectly to help push the muzzle down just in time for the next quick shot. This was especially noticeable on R&R, when firing the AR 10 and the M14 side by side in full auto.

If you have ever fired a long recoil Browning Auto five shotgun, then you will understand exactly what I am describing here ... the long smoooooth "shuck .. Shuck .. of the heavy action reciprocating along with the shot seems to smooth out the recoil significantly.

So what I am suggesting to you, is that before you get too committed to your SOCOM, that you try an AR 10 for some CQB practice and see how it feels for you.

One other serendipitous side effect of choosing an AR 10 over an M14, is that ammo versatility is tremendously increased with an AR 10. I've shot 55 gr Remington accelerators with sabot encased .223 bullets from an AR 10 and an M14, with recoil being near zero with both rifles. So that establishes the bottom end of the usable power scale. This obsolete/ discontinued Rem accelerator ammo was equivalent to a .22- 250 in ballistics, and was incredibly accurate in both my 14s and 10s, and a few bolt actions .308s I tried it in.

I've also shot 110 gr and 125 Gr FACTORY loaded Win .308 ammo in the AR 10, and my current Rem R25 version shoots SUB-moa with some of these hard to find loads.

Next up was my CQB Match load ... Lapua 124 Gr FMJ .311" bulk buy bullets intended for the 7.62X39 Russian, but loaded into .308 Win cases, with light loads of Win 748 powder giving about 2450 fps. These loads gave minimal recoil, and were accurate enough at closer ranges [ moa @ 100 but not as good after that ].

The usual 7.62 NATO spec BALL ammo was always reliable in both the 14s and the 10s and the Hirternberger NATO spec 7.62 BALL ammo was unusually accurate as well.

Then there were the various 168 Gr HPBT MATCH loads. Each rifle was different, and would have it's individual favorites, but ON AVERAGE, most 14s liked best the Winchester Ranger POLICE USE ONLY version of this weight. I can't get any more of this ammo, but I have a few rounds of the modern Win 168 gr SUPREME Match loads to try next range session. Fed 168 Gr GMM was always a close second, and sometimes the first choice for some 14s.

I could occasionally come close to MOA with some of my 14s, with the ammo they liked best

As for the AR10s, on average they didn't care, and most would reliably shoot SUB-moa with almost any good ammo you fed it.

Once you get past 168 GR bullets, unless you are reducing the velocities, you have left the point where the M14 can be pushed ... reliably!!! But the AR 10 is just getting started. I have shot SUB-moa with my current AR 10/Rem R25, with both 180 gr and 200 gr Soft Point hunting type ammo. No worries about the bolks or receivers or op rods self -destructing because the AR 10 uses a completely different gas system.

So there you have it ...
55 gr to 200 gr bullets, all VERY accurate, out of one rifle ...
and that rifle is the fastest handling BATTLE RIFLE EVER ...
THE AR 10.

I have never hunted BIG pigs ... although I have seen what their trail through the swamp looks like, and that is impressive. I have however hunted moose and Black bear in Northern Canada with an AR 10, and Grizzly with a .308 Rem 600. If I was ever hunting DANGEROUS game again with a .308 Win rifle, I would be looking at 180 gr or 200 gr SP .308 Win ammo to maximise my self confidence.

Can't shoot that heavy a load, reliably, with no M14 that I know of,
YPMMV
[
LAZ 1

See less See more

Reactions: 2

Mocos

· #31 · Mar 8, 2012

GeneCo said:
Also, I's refering to losing sight pic from flash blindness, fire coming out the top.

at night.. you won't eliminate muzzle flash on a socom compensator period....it will be a ball of fire maybe 20-30 inches in diameter... if you want to eliminate the flash, you have to use something like the SEI vortex combo.. Daytime, you won't see it for the most part, shoulldn't be an issue..good luck..

Reactions: 1

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #32 · Mar 9, 2012

Lazerus2000 said:
OK,
now that you have your SOCOM 16 all set up the way you like it,
I'll throw you a curve ball ...
[ GENUINE AR 10. LAZ 1[/I][/B]

But, but, but, I have this here SOCOM 16.........sheeshola, I'd have to get all new mags and carriers and optics and slings.......I have an M4........Naw, I'll keep this.

Btw, the hogs and bear ain't nearly as big as way up there, but down here, it's more like brair rabbit and the tar pit baby( meaning in this brush, if one gets you cornered, you got nowhere to run, it's either you or it, your gun better put it down).

A Socom 16 in the hand is worth 2 Ar10 in the bush.MCORPS1

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #33 · Mar 9, 2012

Mocos said:
at night.. you won't eliminate muzzle flash on a socom compensator period....it will be a ball of fire maybe 20-30 inches in diameter... if you want to eliminate the flash, you have to use something like the SEI vortex combo.. Daytime, you won't see it for the most part, shoulldn't be an issue..good luck..

Good points.....thanks

Screech8710

· #34 · Mar 9, 2012

Lazerus2000 said:
How is that AFG working out for you??

Just out of curiousity,
what length shirt sleeve do you have??

I tried the AFG my self on our new Alloy EBR stock,
and while I liked the angled fore grip concept,
I found AFG was located too far forward to balance properly for me on a shorty 14.
It actually slowed me down on my CQB practices.

I still use a "Magazine hold" for ALL my rifles, even my shorty AR 15. I've been told this hold is obsolete and not as ergonomically efficient as some of the newer CQB optimised fore arm holds. I guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur ... I still shoot genuine Weaver stance with my pistol, and most of the other younger [ and faster shooters ] seem to have gone to the Isosceles stance.

Oh well,
at my age I'm getting too old and set in my ways to change easily.

And realistically,
I'm way more likely to die of a heart attack or stroke [ hopefully during sex ] than any Zombi attack,
so I guess I'm still good to go.
[
LAZ 1

I prefer a mag hold too, if I do use a fore end grip, like a broomstick, its all the way back to the mag well. Gives me better stability.

Reactions: 1

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #35 · Mar 9, 2012

Screech8710 said:
I prefer a mag hold too, if I do use a fore end grip, like a broomstick, its all the way back to the mag well. Gives me better stability.

Well, in a run and gun, walking at a fast pace, swinging the rifle back and forth, engaging targets on either side of you, you'd be missing alot, holding the mag.

Folks hold out to the end as far as they can, because it puts them on target more consistantly.

Offhand, slow fire, static target, sure, hold the mag, under the mag, elbow on the hip, just like in bootcamp.

Reactions: 1

Mocos

· #36 · Mar 9, 2012

GeneCo said:
But, but, but, I have this here SOCOM 16.........sheeshola, I'd have to get all new mags and carriers and optics and slings.......I have an M4........Naw, I'll keep this.

Btw, the hogs and bear ain't nearly as big as way up there, but down here, it's more like brair rabbit and the tar pit baby( meaning in this brush, if one gets you cornered, you got nowhere to run, it's either you or it, your gun better put it down).

A Socom 16 in the hand is worth 2 Ar10 in the bush.MCORPS1

socoms and AR10's are like comparing apples and popcorn.....

Reactions: 1

Mocos

· #37 · Mar 9, 2012

GeneCo said:
Well, in a run and gun, walking at a fast pace, swinging the rifle back and forth, engaging targets on either side of you, you'd be missing alot, holding the mag.

Folks hold out to the end as far as they can, because it puts them on target more consistantly.

Offhand, slow fire, static target, sure, hold the mag, under the mag, elbow on the hip, just like in bootcamp.

I don't have a favorite/specific grip....I use the whole length of the forearm..some closer some longer..but because of the lightweight I built, I can hold forwardmost longer(time)...I think magholds are because it is easier to support the total weight of the rig...nothing more...how long can you hold steady m14 or ar15/ar10.....say 10 inches forward of the magwell..I've been lifting weights to improve my hold and I find that with my support arm fully extended, it's pretty comfortable....it's easy to pull in straight...with a vertical or angle grip, they put strain on my elbow joint. As far as elbow on hip and under the mag....not very stable unless you are in tall grass and nothing else to use as a support..

Reactions: 2

GeneCo

Discussion Starter · #38 · Mar 11, 2012

Btw, before I attached the AFG, I screwed and glued the rail( that the AFG secures to) on with JB weld.......I also went ahead and painted the inside of the forend with JB weld as well, to stiffen it up.

See less See more

Mocos

· #39 · Mar 12, 2012

GeneCo said:
Btw, before I attached the AFG, I screwed and glued the rail( that the AFG secures to) on with JB weld.......I also went ahead and painted the inside of the forend with JB weld as well, to stiffen it up.

curious..some questions...I have on order carbon fiber tape and haven't decided which epoxy/resin to use...

>> which stock did you use?
>> did you notice any perceptable stiffness in the forearm with just the jb?
>> did you weigh the stock before and after to see how much weight was
added?
>> how thick of a layer of jb do you think you created?
>> have you tested yet for accuracy improvement? before...after?

Dredsen

· #40 · Mar 12, 2012

Lazerus2000 said:
How is that AFG working out for you??

Just out of curiousity,
what length shirt sleeve do you have??

I tried the AFG my self on our new Alloy EBR stock,
and while I liked the angled fore grip concept,
I found AFG was located too far forward to balance properly for me on a shorty 14.
It actually slowed me down on my CQB practices.

I still use a "Magazine hold" for ALL my rifles, even my shorty AR 15. I've been told this hold is obsolete and not as ergonomically efficient as some of the newer CQB optimised fore arm holds. I guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur ... I still shoot genuine Weaver stance with my pistol, and most of the other younger [ and faster shooters ] seem to have gone to the Isosceles stance.

Oh well,
at my age I'm getting too old and set in my ways to change easily.

And realistically,
I'm way more likely to die of a heart attack or stroke [ hopefully during sex ] than any Zombi attack,
so I guess I'm still good to go.
[
LAZ 1

Im gonna have to go with you on not wanting to jump on board with all the people saying to hold your gun all the way forward (even on the AR15)

I have tried it and it does provide Foregrip control without the fore grip. However i don't like the amount of stress it puts on your arm. I'ts a race gun technique NOT a combat technique.

To each their own YMMV

Reactions: 2

21 - 40 of 55 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.