My Socom 16

How is that AFG working out for you??

Just out of curiousity,
what length shirt sleeve do you have??

I tried the AFG my self on our new Alloy EBR stock,
and while I liked the angled fore grip concept,
I found AFG was located too far forward to balance properly for me on a shorty 14.
It actually slowed me down on my CQB practices.

I still use a "Magazine hold" for ALL my rifles, even my shorty AR 15. I've been told this hold is obsolete and not as ergonomically efficient as some of the newer CQB optimised fore arm holds. I guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur ... I still shoot genuine Weaver stance with my pistol, and most of the other younger [ and faster shooters ] seem to have gone to the Isosceles stance.

Oh well,
at my age I'm getting too old and set in my ways to change easily.

And realistically,
I'm way more likely to die of a heart attack or stroke [ hopefully during sex ] than any Zombi attack,
so I guess I'm still good to go.
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Very interesting ...

Mocos said:

that's a reasonable assumption.....the top ports angle are still angled away from vertical but more toward vertical than the second and third rows..... In my experiment I got too much down force and after drilling out the 2n & 3rd rows, it dips 1-2 inches and it is interesting in that I maintain sight picture all the time because of the muzzle dip. A couple of things comes to mind is that a rising muzzle sometimes creates a bad shooting habit of lifting your head upon firing and peeking to see your impact....the other is that the muzzle rise is actually caused by the the shooter's upward pressure on the forearm, particularly if the rifle is muzzle heavy. Another thing is the your AFG could contribute to muzzle rise depending on how you grip and apply pressure to it....the angle is conducive to a upward motion...if it were a vertical grip, I think it would be neutral....anyway just some thoughts

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I used to build comps for IPSC pistols, and one of the things I tried to do was get the shooter's input on how he liked "THE FEEL". Various shooters preferred various "FEELS" to their comps. eg: an A class shooter who had mastered grip and stance and worked the trigger faster, might not like TOO MUCH muzzle flip reduction as his double tap second shot would be timed such that it was LOW!!

A pistol is much more sensitive than a rifle when it comes to "FEEL", but MOCOS has described some of the things that can contribute to how well a muzzle device can work and be tuned to FEEL exactly right for that one rifle shooter.

One trick I use on my rifle comps is to set the porting up rotated off about 5 - 10 degrees to the right, so the comp effectively pushes the barrel LOW LEFT. Since an un-modified rifle, shot by a right handed shooter, almost invariably throws the second shot of a double tap HIGH RIGHT, setting up the comp to throw LOW LEFT works out quite well for most right handed shooters.

I also like to use TWO sets of ports, angled upwards off both sides, to give a more stable V block effect with the downward push. This is usually much more consistent than a single port at the top pushing down and sort of "wiggling" as it pushes. As a serendipitous side effect, the gases ejected at an angle to the top don't stick around blocking your sight puicture ... which actually helped me come close to the best time on one particular stage at Canadian IPSC Championships one year ... even though I was by no means a great shooter. That particular comp was just set up perfect for that particular stage.

So,
there can be a TREMENDOUS range of what is desirable in FEEL of a muzzle device. However, all such attempts to measure FEEL must remain SUBJECTIVE and based on personal preferences.

To measure simple recoil reduction, a human shoulder can feel some differences, but a scale is more scientific and accurate and OBJECTIVE. In my personal subjective testing, I've found a good M14 compensator, on a short barreled M14, shooting 7.62 NATO BALL ammo, feels about like an SKS shooting 7.62 X39 Russian ammo. In other words a VERY SIGNIFICANT reduction in felt recoil is immediately noticable.

To measure muzzle rise objectively, a graph drawn behind the rifle, and a video camera can measure this parameter. I tested three comps and two flash hiders last year on three different M14 rifles, all with the forearm resting on a sand bag ... with NO forearm support other than the bags. Of course, measured subjectively, muzzle rise is affected by things like weight of the rifle forward of the balance point, barrel length, fore arm grip used, stance, etc.

But recoil and muzzle flip are only two of the balls you are juggling when you start playing around with muzzle devices on an M14. You also have to juggle muzzle FLASH, and muzzle BLAST. How you draw the line between recoil, muzzle rise, muzzle blast, and muzzle flash, is where it gets complicated ... and interesting.

And eventually, you end up back at the PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE, the subjective point of view rather than the objective point of view ... that THIS muzzle device just simple "FEELS" right for you.

I am in the process of designing a compensator SPECIFICALLY for M14 shorty rifles. I've played around with dozens of different comps on dozens of different shortified M14 rifles, and now know pretty well what "FEEL" I like best. But of course, when it comes down to what YOU will like best,
YPMMV.

And the only way to really know what you like best is to try several different designs, to see if the designer drew the lines between recoil / flip / blast / flash, where YOU like them.

Just some thoughts on the subject from a guy who has BTDT a bit already,
TTFN
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Just a slightly different perspective ....

OK,
now that you have your SOCOM 16 all set up the way you like it,
I'll throw you a curve ball ...
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Back when I used to compete in three gun [ actually 4 gun cause we always included a revolver friendly stage and encouraged revolvers ] I shot the rifle stage with an 18.5" barreled GENUINE AR 10. I wasn't the best rifle handler around, but I usually won the rifle stages because my rifle was optimised for that particular game. For fast handling MAJOR caliber fast / close CQB type shooting, I have never found anything as good as a short barreled AR 10.

A properly modifed shortified M14, with a pistol grip and a straight line stock and a good comp can come close, but believe it or not, I found the stock and the pistol grip had more beneficial effect on fast close shooting than did any comp. So all my M14 shorties, and my new M14 alloy EBR stock end up looking a lot like .... you guessed it ... an AR 10.

In addition to the excellent ergonomics pioneered by the AR 10, the OLD ORIGINAL GENUINE AR 10 had a bigger diameter bolt carrier at the back than do the newer AR 10s, which use an AR 15 diameter buffer tube, and make the back of these bolt carriers smaller, to fit inside the AR 15 tube. The original AR 10, with that heavy bolt carrier reciprocating back and forth at each shot, had very low recoil and very little muzzle rise. The lack of muzzle rise came from the STRAIGHT LINE stock and, as I found with the M14 when properly modified, from the pistol grip acting as a recoil absorber and enhanced recoil control point. But that heavy bolt was also an effective muzzle flip control device, as the heavy bolt coming forward seemed to be timed perfectly to help push the muzzle down just in time for the next quick shot. This was especially noticeable on R&R, when firing the AR 10 and the M14 side by side in full auto.

If you have ever fired a long recoil Browning Auto five shotgun, then you will understand exactly what I am describing here ... the long smoooooth "shuck .. Shuck .. of the heavy action reciprocating along with the shot seems to smooth out the recoil significantly.

So what I am suggesting to you, is that before you get too committed to your SOCOM, that you try an AR 10 for some CQB practice and see how it feels for you.

One other serendipitous side effect of choosing an AR 10 over an M14, is that ammo versatility is tremendously increased with an AR 10. I've shot 55 gr Remington accelerators with sabot encased .223 bullets from an AR 10 and an M14, with recoil being near zero with both rifles. So that establishes the bottom end of the usable power scale. This obsolete/ discontinued Rem accelerator ammo was equivalent to a .22- 250 in ballistics, and was incredibly accurate in both my 14s and 10s, and a few bolt actions .308s I tried it in.

I've also shot 110 gr and 125 Gr FACTORY loaded Win .308 ammo in the AR 10, and my current Rem R25 version shoots SUB-moa with some of these hard to find loads.

Next up was my CQB Match load ... Lapua 124 Gr FMJ .311" bulk buy bullets intended for the 7.62X39 Russian, but loaded into .308 Win cases, with light loads of Win 748 powder giving about 2450 fps. These loads gave minimal recoil, and were accurate enough at closer ranges [ moa @ 100 but not as good after that ].

The usual 7.62 NATO spec BALL ammo was always reliable in both the 14s and the 10s and the Hirternberger NATO spec 7.62 BALL ammo was unusually accurate as well.

Then there were the various 168 Gr HPBT MATCH loads. Each rifle was different, and would have it's individual favorites, but ON AVERAGE, most 14s liked best the Winchester Ranger POLICE USE ONLY version of this weight. I can't get any more of this ammo, but I have a few rounds of the modern Win 168 gr SUPREME Match loads to try next range session. Fed 168 Gr GMM was always a close second, and sometimes the first choice for some 14s.

I could occasionally come close to MOA with some of my 14s, with the ammo they liked best

As for the AR10s, on average they didn't care, and most would reliably shoot SUB-moa with almost any good ammo you fed it.

Once you get past 168 GR bullets, unless you are reducing the velocities, you have left the point where the M14 can be pushed ... reliably!!! But the AR 10 is just getting started. I have shot SUB-moa with my current AR 10/Rem R25, with both 180 gr and 200 gr Soft Point hunting type ammo. No worries about the bolks or receivers or op rods self -destructing because the AR 10 uses a completely different gas system.

So there you have it ...
55 gr to 200 gr bullets, all VERY accurate, out of one rifle ...
and that rifle is the fastest handling BATTLE RIFLE EVER ...
THE AR 10.

I have never hunted BIG pigs ... although I have seen what their trail through the swamp looks like, and that is impressive. I have however hunted moose and Black bear in Northern Canada with an AR 10, and Grizzly with a .308 Rem 600. If I was ever hunting DANGEROUS game again with a .308 Win rifle, I would be looking at 180 gr or 200 gr SP .308 Win ammo to maximise my self confidence.

Can't shoot that heavy a load, reliably, with no M14 that I know of,
YPMMV
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Reality VS Gaming???

Dredsen said:

Im gonna have to go with you on not wanting to jump on board with all the people saying to hold your gun all the way forward (even on the AR15)

I have tried it and it does provide Foregrip control without the fore grip. However i don't like the amount of stress it puts on your arm. I'ts a race gun technique NOT a combat technique.

To each their own YMMV

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I hear you!

As an ex-infantry officer, I was never really trained as a DOOR KICKER / CQB type, but I got the basic Canadian version of REAL WORLD rifle and pistol handling beat into me pretty thoroughly.

As a long time IPSC competitor, and 3 gun competitor, I learned a few tricks of "GAMING" that did indeed help improve my scores in a match, but which were of dubious use in a real world shoot out. I eventually stopped shooting IPSC all together. I was becoming concerned some of the tricks and techniques and habits I was picking up in IPSC might just get me killed if I ever got into another real world confrontation where guns came out.

And for me, "practical" shooting has always been about practicing for the real thing, not collecting trophies.

I am too old and too slow and too fat these days too worry much about gun fighting as my cause of death. Statistically, I'm much more likely to be planted by a heart attack or a stroke. But I still some times pick up a gun and pretend I am practicing for the real thing.

When I pick up a rifle, I still hold my left hand just in front of the magazine.
When I pick up a pistol I still use a WEAVER stance.

Sometimes,
especially for the old dogs,
the old tricks are still the best.
YPMMV
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