M14 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have an original DCM acquired M1 that Clint Fowler rebarred with a Kriger heavy SS 1x12 a few years back. Since, I can no longer see the M1's iron sight, as I used to be able to when I was younger, I had a custom SS side mount built by a local smith and attached to rifle so that I can attach a scope using ARMS quick release rings ( I have tried permanent too-same results). I accurized rifle using traditional techniques. Since, I normally use a bolt gun to hunt, it was some time before I really started playing with this rifle (this past spring). What I discovered was that the rifle shoots extremely accurate (sub 1 moa) if I GINGERLY manually feed 150 SMKs (48 grain H4895), one at a time. Groups are at a 2'oclock position of BULL. However, if I allow for the system to feed all eight rounds, the first hole is at the 7'oclock position and the remaining seven rounds are at the 2'oclock position, with the total group 2" to 4" at 200 yds. I tried to get Fowler to reexamine this rifle to determine if mount was moving ( local smith and I cannot identify movement), since he had told me earlier that he had a device to perform this type of test. However, he replied that he was out of business, due to his age. He recommended Fulton Armory. I contacted Clint at Fulton and explained my problem, including that I believed that the mount may be the culprit. Using crimped vs. non-crimped ammo, 168 and 150, and also testing IMR 8208 powder, the results were the same. I shipped the rife and its attached mount to him, along with a check for about 120 bucks to cover inspection and returned shipping (seems reasonable). After examination, Clint indicated that it was difficult for him to determine why my M1 shot the way it did, but due to safety issues, he didn't recommend manually feeding an M1 due to slam fires ( I already knew that). He stated that the gas cylinder was out of specs, tried to sell me a trigger job, and then stated that he could not test the mount or isolate it to be the problem. I ended up spending an additional 150 buck more for a refurbished gas calendar and one fine cleaning job (of the rifle). Has any one experienced this type problem (accuracy). If so, how did you remedy it? This is really weird!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,679 Posts
Issue is so consistent and repeatable I wouldn't think it's optics. If your end group on a full clip of 8 fired at a paper target actually ends up pretty tight, you could do tilt tests but I wouldn't suspect stock or barrel rub from the op rod. My GUESS - and that's all it is - is your first round is loading with the powder stretched out and the recoil is pushing the powder to the rear in the other 7. When you load single-round, do you tap the base of the cartridge first?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,272 Posts
Or the hand cycled round is chambering differently than the rounds cycled by the action. My browning hi power does it, first round hand cycled hits differently than the next 11
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
M1 Garand Accuracy

I am shooting 48 grain of H4898, which is not a compressed load but close to filling the case. The inconsistant powder packing might be the issue, but I am no chemist. We measured the cartridges/ bullets with a bullet comparator after manually cycling them and didn't noticed any warpage. However, I have never measured a cartridge once gone into battery by the weapons force. It coud be that the viloent action of the bolt slamming the remaining 7 rounds is warping the cartridge in one way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,679 Posts
Then I'd load a full 8 that you've measured and jack 'em all out one by one without firing, closely inspect and measure for the chamber's before-after effect. You know your rig and your ammo.

Speaking of the .30-06. I don't load real hot even for longer range hunting with a bolt-action rifle. So I wouldn't know if there IS such a thing as a sane compressed load with the '06. Well, I guess I've gotten close with 4350 and long, heavy bullets. We all used to shoot the standing and slow prone stages of a Highpower match and, like you (and as I had been coached - there was no such thing as a SLED), we'd load each round into the Garand rifle by inserting same into the chamber, pressing the follower with the thumb, letting the bolt take the round into battery. It was safe enough. Everybody on the firing line would tap the side of the rear end of the live cartridge against the op rod before loading it to settle the powder uniformly round to round. Then came the .308 and eliminated that little headache.
 

·
MGySgt USMC (ret)
Joined
·
7,066 Posts
In any semi automatic firearm, the first round of a clip or magazine will usually not go in the same spot as all the rest of the rounds in the clip or magazine. This is because it is almost impossible to load the first round like the firearm loads all the rest.

To see whether or not you have an ammo problrem or a gun problem, I would recommend shooting the rifle with some Federal Gold Medal Match ammo. That way you can rest assured the accuracy problem is not from the ammo and see if you have a gun problem. If the accuracy is good, then you know the problem is your handloads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,509 Posts
Everyone of my Garands throws the first rd .
I beleive it is becuase the first rd is stripped from the enbloc at a different rate than the rest as they are cycled by the action of the rifle
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,529 Posts
Tank1949,

When you find the solution let us know. When the JC Garand matches first started I sent one oft M1s to Clint Fowler for him to build me a legal rifle with no cost constraint. I even ordered one of the limited run barrel from Krieger that is GI contour but with 14 twist for the 150 grain slugs. The rifle was hand fitted to a stock.

The rifle will shoot the X ring prone slow fire, but as soon as I insert an Enbloc it will string them 9 ring to 9 ring with occasional 8 ring. The rifle will do this even if I shoot the 9 rounds at slow fire phase. I replaced every component except the barrel and receiver and it still did it.

Finally I got tired of it and sent it to hook to bed so at least I can use it for back up hunting rifle. It still string them. I had another JC Garand rifle built by another guy again with Krieger GI contour, it did not string them but I am pressed to clean the target slow fire prone. Just no luck...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Back to Range

Bamban and others!

I didn't realize that this type of inaccurize is as wide spred with M1s as I do know. It is frustrating to drop a couple of grand into a firearm, and it still doesn't shoot worth 2000.00.


Oddly, I also have a double luged SA M1A with a Kreiger (heavy) 1x12 that shoots consistantly sub MOAs, even a full 20 rd mag.

I am going to the range this week with a bullet comparator and get someone with good eyes to shoot my M1 with only irons.

If I learn something to solve problem, I'll post.

THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

·
MGySgt USMC (ret)
Joined
·
7,066 Posts
This is why I always suggest if someone wants the absolute best accuracy, then they should not buy a semi automatic and should buy a Bolt Gun.

We got our double lugged torque screwed M14's to shoot ALMOST as good as our Model 40A1's, but never to that level of accuracy because the bolt gun is inherently more accurate.

I realize this is disappointing to read, but one has to figure in what it costs to manufacture a semi auto M14 VS the much, MUCH easier and CHEAPER bolt action/rifle to manufacture. So if you are looking to get the most accuracy at the least expensive price, buy a bolt gun.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,729 Posts
Settling the Powder

The first round {30 06] issue with a M1 when using a clip is widespread and to my knowledge has never been explained or corrected.

One thing does seem to help however in bringing that first shot into the group... After loading the first round, hold the rifle vertical and tap the side of the stock near the chamber area, lower the rifle slowly, not going past lower then the target. Ken Waters addressed this in his Re loading Book years ago. He called it "Primer Up" as I recall.. It is worth a try, who knows...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
349 Posts
I have seen a few Garands I have built do this, some do it some dont. Like Art said, never been able to figure it out. I have found that the closer the case is to full of powder(I found it in a garand I was playing with slow powder charge loads with schuster plugs) the less it happened. My gun did it, but when I was using compressed loads of slow burn RL 22 it went away.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,679 Posts
The first round {30 06] issue with a M1 when using a clip is widespread and to my knowledge has never been explained or corrected.

One thing does seem to help however in bringing that first shot into the group... After loading the first round, hold the rifle vertical and tap the side of the stock near the chamber area, lower the rifle slowly, not going past lower then the target. Ken Waters addressed this in his Re loading Book years ago. He called it "Primer Up" as I recall.. It is worth a try, who knows...
It's tried and true. I agree with OP, too, that his chamber may be on the short side, not unsafe headspace-wise on a "go" gauge but just enough crack his bullet seating. First thing to do is measure and compare.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,383 Posts
I have seen a few Garands I have built do this, some do it some dont. Like Art said, never been able to figure it out. I have found that the closer the case is to full of powder(I found it in a garand I was playing with slow powder charge loads with schuster plugs) the less it happened. My gun did it, but when I was using compressed loads of slow burn RL 22 it went away.
If the problem went away with a compressed load, why not try some fiber fill when reloading to keep the powder in a compressed state. Just a thought.

When I was shooting PPC years ago, some of the guys, who were shooting very light loads, use to do this to keep the power next to the primer for more consistent and better ignition.

Regards

Ox
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,529 Posts
We got our double lugged torque screwed M14's to shoot ALMOST as good as our Model 40A1's, but never to that level of accuracy because the bolt gun is inherently more accurate.
QUOTE]

Gus,

I have a M40A1 built at your old shop in Quantico complete with the 10X scope and the rest of the stuff as issued including the hard case. This was auctioned off on Sniper's Hide to raise funds for Eddie Ryan, a wounded USMC sniper. This rifle is a laser, I hardly shoot though.

Now, I need a 14 built to the same spec as the USMC big team rifle that is ALMOST as accurate as the A1. That would be a nice pair.

Do you know anyone in Virginia near Richmond who can build the 14 for me, preferably someone who used to run the RTE? lol.....

Nez
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
i've noticed this as well with two of my garand's out of the two things that i tried one thing gave me good results, insted of loading all eight rounds i took one out so the tension from the clip is virtually the same. it worked with both of my garands and the other thing that i tried was sitting down and getting the barrel foueld, after about 50 rounds the first shot didnt fly to to one side but was still considered a flyer. besides even at three hundred yards all of my garands shoot minute of man, aren't the only thing that is supposed to count is the hits
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
M1 Garand weird accuracy

The more I think about it, the compression may be a factor, but in reverse. When that cartridge stops its forward movement via the violent action cycling, it seems to me that the powder would compress forward, much more so than when manually cycling (first rnd). I'm going to pack case with IMR 4895 and compare the results. 49 grains is darn near a compressed load and MAX pressure. I'll try 50 grains of IMR 8208 too.

The fouling doen't appear to be a problem. I have tried several 8 round combinations. The first rd seems to always near 7 oclock.

Have any of you noticed this type phenomena with M1As? Mine shoots great but 45.0 + grains of H4895 with 150 SMK just about pack the cases completely full. It may be the case size on the 06 must be packed to minimize this compression???? It is worth a try and also measuring the concentricity of the rounds before and after firing.


THX!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,225 Posts
The most accurate loads I ever made for my M1A had compressed powder.

I used to have a Win. M190 .22 that did this. The first round when "somewhere" on the target. It might be 1" to 1.5" from the rest of the bullets. The remaining 14 or 15 rounds would tear a hole slighly smaller than a dime at 25 yds. Great squirrel gun. If you could get the squirrel to stand still when that first head shot missed. I could kill squirrels running out tree limbs to jump to the next tree - but never with the first shot. Finally traded it on a compound bow.

Didn't catch it if someone else suggested it. Have you loaded a clip (or two) with the rounds opposite of normal - meaning if your first round is normally top right (like I load my clips) have you tried it with the first round on the top left?
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top