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List of known "DEVINE TEX" marked rifles

33688 Views 66 Replies 28 Participants Last post by  flyboy
The following M1A rifles have the "DEVINE TEX" mark on the barrel. Please add additional rifles as you know of, pictures appreciated.

I'm not implying agreement with the position that "DEVINE TEX" is a valid Elmer Ballance barrel marking. I am trying to keep the discussion organized for those not totally up to speed on this topic. I own M1A serial number 000049 but I have no Texas marked M1A rifles. There's no financial gain or loss to me. The truth will prevail.

Serial Number/Owner/Comments

000505 - friend of Garand Doctor, 1973 purchase from Sarco, need marking confirmed
00064X - observed by BennyBenz
000689 - slag
000690 - non-member who purchased this USED in October 1973 at the San Francisco Gun Exchange.
000708 - art luppino [photos and documents enroute]
000710 - dighawaii
00074X - board member who wishes to remain anonymous
000812 - Garand Doctor - July 1973 purchase from Sarco
000825 - steve12
000850 - wdigeorge
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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
ARDog said:
On WB's site I read that they made about 4600 receivers. From the note's in your work on known receivers, I notice only three digit serial numbers. Is there any evidence of 4 digit receivers from Devine Texas?

Were the barrels always hand stamped in a font with serifs?

I have now seen pictures of at least two apparently machine stamped barrels with RT 1 BX 210 DEVINE TEX, no serifs.
Was this a common counterfeit?

I have started down the path and not knowing the facts is killing me!

Mr. Different, do your studies and the information on Mr. Warbird's site agree? Is there a difference of opinion?
Is Mr. Balance still available?

Sorry for the probe.GI3 I'm OCD and there is no "off" switch.

ARDog
ARDog,

M14 Rifle History and Development is a work in progress. I'm not sure what part of the book you are referring to regarding the three digit serial numbers for Texas M1A receivers/rifles. The American Rifleman evaluated M1A serial number 001562 and wrote about it in their March 1974 issue. I specifically mention this in M14 Rifle History and Development. Keep your eye on Appendix A in this book. It is a work in progress.

Warbird and I agree about the ~4600 Texas M1A receivers. We should, Mr. Ballance told us both the same number.

We also know (no dispute anywhere) that some of those 4600 receivers were transferred to Illinois in late 1974 as part of the inventory in the sale to the Reese family.

We know there is a transistion serial number range between Texas and Illinois. There are multiple sources to document this. There's no dispute on this.

We know that some Texas marked barrels were included in the inventory that went to Illinois. Mr. Ballance has told Warbird, myself and others of that. No dispute there.

Not all Texas barrels were hand stamped. Both warbird and I agree on that. There's no dispute on this point.

I have copies of two letters signed in 2006 by Mr. Ballance stating that the DEVINE TEX marking on M1A serial number 000708 was assembled by him (see post above).

There are different terms / definitions being used regarding the first ~ 4600 serial numbers. IMO, this is something we collectors will need to find a consensus on. Example, is a 0039XX receiver/rifle a Texas M1A? What if it had a Texas stamped barrel installed in Illinois? I'm asking these questions rhetorically.

Rest assured, this subject matter continues to be researched. There's more information that I believe will come out but we need to be patient. Trust me in this, please.
 

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Hello

Just found this.

So, some of the barrels shipped to Illinois just might have the one line address machine stamped under the gas plug but are not "devines"?

Did I read that barrels and receivers? got shipped east and some of those became the not true "Devines" or fakes?

I saw all the verified "Devines" were 3 digit but read the 4600 receivers and not sure what to infer there.

What was the criteria for the pic on Warbird's site, the pic of the one line address, that made that one fake and how are we supposed to tell?

You wrote two paragraphs about early barrel markings and Texas Barrel Markings in different sections of your book. I think the online version around pages 107 and 155. The PDF is a pia to search and manipulate. I thought in the two paragraphs, that address barrel markings facts had a conflict . Might take a look.

I think if you contact Rifleman/FMJ he might have a little present for you.

ARDog
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
ARDog said:
So, some of the barrels shipped to Illinois just might have the one line address machine stamped under the gas plug but are not "devines"?

Did I read that barrels and receivers? got shipped east and some of those became the not true "Devines" or fakes?

I saw all the verified "Devines" were 3 digit but read the 4600 receivers and not sure what to infer there.

What was the criteria for the pic on Warbird's site, the pic of the one line address, that made that one fake and how are we supposed to tell?

You wrote two paragraphs about early barrel markings and Texas Barrel Markings in different sections of your book. I think the online version around pages 107 and 155. The PDF is a pia to search and manipulate. I thought in the two paragraphs, that address barrel markings facts had a conflict . Might take a look.

I think if you contact Rifleman/FMJ he might have a little present for you.

ARDog
The fact that some Texas address barrels were shipped to Ilinois with the sale to the Reese family is a given and there's no dispute on that. Mr. Ballance confirmed that for me. He's told the same to Warbird as well.

AFAIK, I'm not the decision maker on anything M14. I'm doing research no one else has done and I'm sharing that information. I try not to jump to conclusions. This is a work in progress. AFAIK, no one has made any decisions about what is a Texas/Devine/San Antonio M1A. I did state in my post that I was asking questions RHETORICALLY.

I don't understand how you say I state in my book that only three digit serial numbers could/should be considered "Devine" M1A rifles. I don't use the term. Serial numbers above 2000 were shipped directly from Devine, TX in 1974 to FFLs. This is established information for those of us following this for some time.

I already stated, ~ 4600 M1A receivers had been shipped to Texas by the time it was sold to the Reese family. Not all of those 4600 receivers had been sold by November 1974. So, the ones not sold were shipped to Illinois along with the rest of the inventory from Texas. Why is this difficult?

Today, I examined M1A serial number 001389 and interviewed the original owner. It has a two line Devine address barrel marking. It's hand stamped and has serif font lettering. The credibility of the owner is very well established, Bruce Dow of Dow Arms Room (Dade City, FL). I have photos of the barrel marking but they did not come out well. I'm a terrible photographer.

Yes, the Online Edition of M14 Rifle History and Development may be a PITA to search. I use the Ctrl-F feature to search for things. OTOH, it's free. I don't know too many people giving away years of research.
 

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Different said:
The fact that some Texas address barrels were shipped to Ilinois with the sale to the Reese family is a given and there's no dispute on that. Mr. Ballance confirmed that for me. He's told the same to Warbird as well.

AFAIK, I'm not the decision maker on anything M14. I'm doing research no one else has done and I'm sharing that information. I try not to jump to conclusions. This is a work in progress. AFAIK, no one has made any decisions about what is a Texas/Devine/San Antonio M1A. I did state in my post that I was asking questions RHETORICALLY.

I don't understand how you say I state in my book that only three digit serial numbers could/should be considered "Devine" M1A rifles. I don't use the term. Serial numbers above 2000 were shipped directly from Devine, TX in 1974 to FFLs. This is established information for those of us following this for some time.

I'm very sorry here. I was just trying to understand the criteria.

I already stated, ~ 4600 M1A receivers had been shipped to Texas by the time it was sold to the Reese family. Not all of those 4600 receivers had been sold by November 1974. So, the ones not sold were shipped to Illinois along with the rest of the inventory from Texas. Why is this difficult?

I am dense and haven't been able to interpret your years of research easily. I will shut up for a year and read before asking more questions.

Today, I examined M1A serial number 001389 and interviewed the original owner. It has a two line Devine address barrel marking. It's hand stamped and has serif font lettering. The credibility of the owner is very well established, Bruce Dow of Dow Arms Room (Dade City, FL). I have photos of the barrel marking but they did not come out well. I'm a terrible photographer.

Yes, the Online Edition of M14 Rifle History and Development may be a PITA to search. I use the Ctrl-F feature to search for things. OTOH, it's free. I don't know too many people giving away years of research.
I was referring to the PDF format which I believe is annoying to many. In no way do I think your work is substandard in any way, quite the opposite.

I own your book and think it is well layed out, magnificent. I was trying to look up text for others to reference and the PDF format and my brain don't do well together.

Listen, I think some how you have misinterpreted my tone or demeanor as offensive. I am very sorry if that is the case. I will just sit back and watch/learn until I am up to speed. I am curious and it's not coming as fast as I like. My problem.
Sorry if I made it yours somehow.

I can feel a chip on your shoulder and I apologize.

I understand that the PDF standard is just that, free so we all can share its use. This does not mean that I take your generosity for granted. It was not personal.

I owe you a coffee!

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
ARDog said:
I was referring to the PDF format which I believe is annoying to many. In no way do I think your work is substandard in any way, quite the opposite.

I own your book and think it is well layed out, magnificent. I was trying to look up text for others to reference and the PDF format and my brain don't do well together.

Listen, I think some how you have misinterpreted my tone or demeanor as offensive. I am very sorry if that is the case. I will just sit back and watch/learn until I am up to speed. I am curious and it's not coming as fast as I like. My problem.
Sorry if I made it yours somehow.

I can feel a chip on your shoulder and I apologize.

I understand that the PDF standard is just that, free so we all can share its use. This does not mean that I take your generosity for granted. It was not personal.

I owe you a coffee!

Chris
Print the pages you want to read from the Online Edition or print the draft version of the Third Edition on the M14 Rifle Library CD. You have permission to print those documents for personal use.

We have new M14 fans all the time. GI5 All of us here are trying to help each other. GI1

We all have limited time, money and energy as well as other responsibilities. My last post in this thread was made from the Tampa International Airport. I'm now in Connecticut and I'm going to bed. I get a lot of requests and questions. Please spend some time reading what you have on the CD whether it's on the screen or printed off. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
cz777, does M1A serial number 000601 have any Texas address barrel markings? If so, what is the address marked on the barrel? Is it hand stamped or engraved? Is the address in one line or two lines? TIA
 

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While visiting my brother in law recently, he showed me one of his M1A rifles. It was serial number 000200, and marked on the barrel Devine Tx. It is wearing an E2 stock, complete with the sling, hand grip and bipod. I am not sure if that stock was on the rifle when he bought it. He was stationed in Texas at the time he bought it
 

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Different, I will have to go back for a visit, and take a picture. I just don't remember any more than that. I remember him saying he paid $250 for the rifle when he picked it up. I don't think he has fired it much, if at all.
We are both in North Central FL, so a visit won't be much of a problem.
 
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