[Tom Paine]

This will end in tears. Hopefully the courts will not this BS down.
My re-entry into shooting was with Lake City boxes of 500 rounds of 7.62. Not the best of course, but hey, fun, fun, fun.

 

[Scott in Texas]

From Wikipedia:
Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) is a 3,935-acre (15.92 km2) U.S. government-owned, contractor-operated facility in northeastern Independence, Missouri, that was established by Remington Arms in 1941 to manufacture and test small caliber ammunition for the U.S. Army. The facility has remained in continuous operation except for one 5-year period following World War II.[1][2] As of July 2007, the plant produced nearly 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition per year.[3] In addition, Lake City performs small caliber ammunition stockpile reliability testing and has ammunition and weapon testing responsibilities as the NATO National and Regional Test Center. LCAAP is the single largest producer of small arms ammunition for the United States Armed Forces.[3][4]

Remington Arms operated the plant from its inception until 1985, when operations were taken over by the Olin Corporation.[2] (Winchester) From April 2001, it was operated by Alliant Techsystems (ATK) (Federal), later known as Orbital ATK after a 2015 merger between Orbital Sciences Corporation and parts of Alliant Techsystems. Orbital ATK was acquired by Northrop Grumman in 2018[5] and is now known as Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems. Starting in October 2020, Winchester Ammunition was selected by the US Army to operate and manage the Lake City Plant.[6]

So....Remington from 1941-1985
Winchester from 1985-2001
Federal from 2001-2020
Winchester 2020-2027, option to extend to 2030.

I think it probable that planned overruns to sell commercially are part of the business model - use the LC facilities and equipment instead of your own. I also think there is an unacknowledged agreement to rotate amongst these major domestic ammunition manufacturers. Now that ATK / Vista Outdoors owns Remington and Federal, my guess is they will take over whenever the current Winchester contract ends.

 

[Will t]

BREAKING: Biden Administration Moves to Cut Off Lake City .223/5.56 Ammo From the Commercial Market - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Apparently not content with its efforts so far to make gun ownership more difficult and expensive for America’s 100 million firearm owners, a source tells TTAG that the Biden administration is taking steps to reduce the availability of .223/5.56 ammunition...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

Is this real?

Not going to happen under current Olin contract to run Lake City ammunition manufacturing with DOD. Vista that owns Federal had the previous contract from 2012-2019 and released millions of rounds of excess LC military production of 5.56 to the civilian market. There is plenty of 5.56 out there.

 

[BBF97]

That explains the low prices

 

[HarryB]

Scott in Texas: There is no preexisting agreement to rotate among manufacturers, full and open competition each time….. several ATK executives I dealt with on other ATK business sectors lost their jobs because Federal lost out to Winchester.

 

[HarryB]

Steely: Winchester does not have any option to ignore the contract terms, including the Government’s unilateral rights to modify the terms of the contract at the Government’s discretion. Especially in a Government owned facility with numerous Government employees present inspecting the products produced….

 

[Scott in Texas]

Fair enough.

I've always heard when dealing with our Federal Government, 'lowest bid always wins'. Might not be true always but probably the majority.

 

[mstagg]

Interesting assertions on contract terms protecting continues sales of “surplus” LC 5.56. I am a retired supervisory Contracting Officer, 42 years Federal Service. The US Government is the sovereign in terms of English Cannon Law, upon which our country’s legal system is based. The Government has the right to change any term of a contract at any time related to performance such as deliveries, use of Government Owned Equipment and Facilities, along with many other terms of the contract. The contractor has the right to be paid for services. Those that believe that a contractor can sue for specific performance to continue to sell excess production capacity commercially may be disappointed. My limited knowledge of the operation of the LCAAP is that the operating contractor could sell ammunition that did not pass QC inspection and produce new ammunition utilizing equipment when facilities and equipment are not being utilized for contract requirements, the contractor is required to reimburse the Government for such use, usually as a contract credit. Selling ammunition that did not pass QC inspection commercially was a big savings to the Government, avoided demilitarization costs.

Very interesting information for those of us outside of that loop. Thank you or sharing.

 

[n4aof]

Run the contract out and then refuse to sign a new contract with the government after that. Flood the civilian market with commercial ammunition. Make ammo cheap again!

This might not be the silliest comment ever made, but it's certainly in the running. Exactly how do you think Winchester (or anyone else) not running one of the government owned ammo factories would "flood the civilian market with commercial ammunition" or "Make ammo cheap again!"

Get a clue!

Winchester isn't selling ammunition to the military from any of the Winchester factories. Winchester is managing the Lake City Ammunition Plant which is owned by the government.

If the current operator (Winchester) chose not to compete for the next contract in a few years, that would just mean that someone else would be managing the plant.

The Lake City Ammunition Plant is a government-owned facility. The government hires a civilian company to manage the operation. Part of the deal in the contract is that IF the manager is able to produce more ammunition than the government needs, the manager is then allowed to sell any excess they produced.

This serves two purposes: 1) It incentivizes the manager to run the plant efficiently and to create excess capacity which would help the government if they suddenly needed more ammunition; and 2) it serves as part of the compensation to the management for running the plant -- bottom line, the better the management is at running the plant, the more money the management makes, but the plant belongs to the government, and the government had first call on all the ammo it produces.

 

[n4aof]

I've never understood the Hispanic vote, and perhaps I should not generalize, but my impression of Hispanics is that they are generally hard-working, fiscally conservative, strong family oriented, and God fearing. To me, it seems like those values should align strongly with the Republican party.

You have to realize that most voters really are single issue voters -- no matter how much we like to tell ourselves that we consider all the issues, most voters have only one or two issues that they pay attention to during political campaigns.

When politicians talk about any particular block of voters, whether it be "Hispanics" or "Blacks" or "Soccer Moms" or any other group, what they are talking about is people who vote on just one or two issues that are perceived as relevant to that community.

To the extent that there is any "Hispanic vote" politicians are talking about those people who vote primarily on "immigration" issues. Both parties have convinced the public that the Democrat Party is "pro-immigration" and that the Republican Party is "anti-immigration." The realities aren't that simple - but voters generally are.

Any discussion about "Hispanics" changing their voting preferences is talking about either duping people into thinking Republicans are pro-immigration or convincing Hispanic American Citizens that immigration isn't the most important issue impacting them and their own families.

 

[E pluribus unum]

You have to realize that most voters really are single issue voters -- no matter how much we like to tell ourselves that we consider all the issues, most voters have only one or two issues that they pay attention to during political campaigns.

Huh?

Drag Queens in School
Gun Control
Inflation
High Gas Prices
Defecit Spending
FBI Overreach
Election Fraud
Repeated release of repeat offenders
Promotion of Riots
Abortion
Sexual Indoctrination of Children
Critical Race Theory
Mask Mandates
Shot Mandates
Green Agenda
Tech Censorship
Tech Privacy Invasion
Red Flag Law
Government Corruption
Revisionist destruction of Art
Multiple Government Pensioners
Term Limits
Defunded Police
Student Loan Forgiveness
Government promotion of gambling
Open Borders
Government Sponsored Drug Abuse Havens
Target organized harassment of Supreme Court Justices homes and families.
Same for any other citizen.


And Air Conditioning of Schools

 

[E pluribus unum]

Any discussion about "Hispanics" changing their voting preferences is talking about either duping people into thinking Republicans are pro-immigration or convincing Hispanic American Citizens that immigration isn't the most important issue impacting them and their own families.

That’s not true.
They are getting fed up with much of the above list.

 

[n4aof]

Any discussion about "Hispanics" changing their voting preferences is talking about either duping people into thinking Republicans are pro-immigration or convincing Hispanic American Citizens that immigration isn't the most important issue impacting them and their own families.

That’s not true.
They are getting fed up with much of the above list.

So you are saying that my statement is "not true" because Hispanic American Citizens are deciding that other issues are more important than immigration -- which is exactly what I said that you say isn't true.

Perhaps you should read the posts you are replying to.

 

[eachurch1972]

You have to realize that most voters really are single issue voters -- no matter how much we like to tell ourselves that we consider all the issues, most voters have only one or two issues that they pay attention to during political campaigns.

When politicians talk about any particular block of voters, whether it be "Hispanics" or "Blacks" or "Soccer Moms" or any other group, what they are talking about is people who vote on just one or two issues that are perceived as relevant to that community.

To the extent that there is any "Hispanic vote" politicians are talking about those people who vote primarily on "immigration" issues. Both parties have convinced the public that the Democrat Party is "pro-immigration" and that the Republican Party is "anti-immigration." The realities aren't that simple - but voters generally are.

Any discussion about "Hispanics" changing their voting preferences is talking about either duping people into thinking Republicans are pro-immigration or convincing Hispanic American Citizens that immigration isn't the most important issue impacting them and their own families.

My friends the sad fact is that voting is a joke and all of us should know that by now. We have no true say in anything. America has been taken over since the blatantly STOLEN Election of 2020. And all elections in the future will end the same damn way. The same crappy voting machines are being used and our judicial system is also a complete joke and fully corrupt like the entirety of these dying United States. But wait we have the FBI & the DOJ, yeah right. They are ultra corrupt dog $hit as well. Friends our entire damn country has been taken over - is that not known by most at this point?

 

[n4aof]

The US Government is the sovereign in terms of English Cannon Law, upon which our country’s legal system is based.

I wasn't aware that our legal system was based on the ecclesiastic laws of the Church of England. I always thought it was based on English Common Law.

Or did you mean English laws enforced by artillery (which is actually what you said).

 

[n4aof]

My friends the sad fact is that voting is a joke and all of us should know that by now. We have no true say in anything. America has been taken over since the blatantly STOLEN Election of 2020. And all elections in the future will end the same damn way. The same crappy voting machines are being used and our judicial system is also a complete joke and fully corrupt like the entirety of these dying United States. But wait we have the FBI & the DOJ, yeah right. They are ultra corrupt dog $hit as well. Friends our entire damn country has been taken over - is that not known by most at this point?

OMG... We really have someone who believes the "stolen election" nonsense!

I've got a post that talks about the 2020 election, but it is languishing in limbo "awaiting moderator approval" -- I'm not sure if the message is staying invisible because I had the temerity to point out that it was gun owners who elected Biden or because I pointed out that Wayne LaPierre was the driving force behind the bump stock ban.

 

[E pluribus unum]

So you are saying that my statement is "not true" because Hispanic American Citizens are deciding that other issues are more important than immigration -- which is exactly what I said that you say isn't true.

Perhaps you should read the posts you are replying to.

I read it and it isn’t limited to what you stated.
And it isn’t a matter of “convincing them”.
That is a very narrow view of what drives the Hispanic vote.

 

[ExSpook]

Been saying this for years, if you can't achieve "gun control" it might be worth a shot at "ammo control".

Amigo, you hit it right on the head. It is easier for the anti-gunners to cut off ammunition production/availability that to go door to door hunting down 320 million firearms.

Anti-2nd Amendment zealots have been targeting ammunition for years. In mid-1994, fresh off their victory with the Assault Weapons Ban, the Clinton administration proposed a law to require individuals who owned an "arsenal" to obtain a license. An arsenal was defined as owning 6 or more firearms of any type, or more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition or 1,000 primers or any combination of loaded rounds and primers that exceed 1,000. The requirements to obtain the license essentially matched the NFA requirements for a Title 3 item (machinegun, suppressor, etc.) It was pretty draconian and thank the Lord the dems lost the mid-terms in November 1994.

Obama made a run at ammunition. There was a serious effort to require manufacturers of primers to introduce a substance to make primers go inert after 10 years. As such any loaded round or primer owned by civilians would become useless. This foolishness stopped when manufacturers showed some backbone and pushed back saying they could not guarantee affected ammunition might not go inert at say 9 yrs rather than 10 yrs. Anyone depending on an "in date" round for self-defense would have a huge claim against the manufacturer of the round that went inert to soon.

On January 6, 2016, Ms. Ann Brown, the former Chairman of the Consumer Products Safety Commission, wrote an article for the Washington Post urging obama to use the power of the CPSC to eliminate ammunition. She mentioned that the first commissioner or the CPSC took the position at it could control ammunition. Apparently, Congress took action to restrict that power but since when would not having legal authority slow down gun grabbers in their ceaseless efforts to destroy the Second Amendment. By the way, Ms. Brown regurgitated the standard leftist comment that the Second Amendment does not limit regulation of ammunition. Hmmmm.....when the Redcoats march on Concord and Lexington weren't they looking to confiscate both arms and ammunition....just saying.

Changing the contract to restrict Winchester's right to produce ammunition at Lake City for sale to civilians is an overt effort to control civilian ammunition supplies. I am afraid that there is a covert effort by the government to restrict the sale of primers to civilians. I have not been able to purchase primers in my area (Western Washington) or to buy them on line since late 2019. I do not believe to hype about labor shortages caused by the chicom flu; the massive increase of ammunition sales to new firearms owners in 2020; or whatever other lies are being told. Primers have been virtually non-existent for 2 1/2 years. The Dems have targeted primers for a long time. I think this time, one way or another they have managed to remove them from the marketplace.

 

[Bamban]

It's bad enough that they're using ball powder in the M193 and M80, but they aren't even using nickeled primers. At least Lake City was using mil spec #34 and #41 primers when Federal was running the show. I wouldn't use the current crap in my rifles if it was free. 🤪

Federal made MK248 Mod0 is great 300WM ammo. 1 inch average at 200yds 28 5 shot groups.

 

[KurtC]

Federal made MK248 Mod0 is great 300WM ammo. 1 inch average at 200yds 28 5 shot groups.
View attachment 482711

Mk 248, as well as Mk 316, was made by Federal, not Lake City. Two different plants.