[bigbang]

Exellent article and oh so true for my army. When my contingent dropped in via Uzbekistan we wern`t permitted to take our individual arms with us. There should be rifles and pistoles in the Camps. We found out, that those rifles lost zero long time ago (they were off 0,5m at 100m) and had to be adjusted to the individual soldier. It took me 2 month to have every soldier in the Camp FEY find his zero.
Wolf

 

[pendennis]

Well written...

...indictment of the current marksmanship program.

A friend of mine at our club, is a contract marksmanship instructor for the U.S. Army. His primary focus is to train the designated marksmen in combat units.

According to him, they have to start at square one with infantrymen, who do not have even basic rifleman skills, that would have been considered "standard" in the 1960's. Most have never fired a rifle at more than one hundred yards.

One of his students was a former Marine, who had joined the Army. The Marine ended up as an informal "assistant instructor". His basic Marine marksmanship skills very nearly equaled the requirements of the Army's designated marksman.

The first war in Iraq should have been the bellwether for insuring that longer range skills were taught. Not all combat takes place in a telephone booth.

There's the history of the Marines in WWI , and their engagement of Germain soldiers at 800 yards in Belleau Wood. While the hardware has changed, the best remedy still is to keep the enemy from getting close, and make him pay dearly if he tries. At the engagement distances in Afghanistan, one would think that this would be a given.

 

[1911Ron]

Appleseed has trained at least 2 if not 3 National Guard units prior to them shipping out,stuff that the Army is not spending time to do, sad really.

 

[charlie98]

Appleseed has trained at least 2 if not 3 National Guard units prior to them shipping out,stuff that the Army is not spending time to do, sad really.

Amen, Brother...

When I was at Fort Carson with the 4th ID, in a supply unit (hey, wasn't my choice...) we qualified with 40 rounds, once a year. That was IT. It was funny (sort of) and very sad (certainly) to see some of the supply pukes trying to figure out which end the bullet was supposed to come out of...

 

[tmcfalls]

Amen, Brother...

When I was at Fort Carson with the 4th ID, in a supply unit (hey, wasn't my choice...) we qualified with 40 rounds, once a year. That was IT. It was funny (sort of) and very sad (certainly) to see some of the supply pukes trying to figure out which end the bullet was supposed to come out of...

I have a good friend that was an active duty Marine in the 90s. His last post was as an instructor on machine guns and MK19 grenade launchers, and he mainly instructed rear echelon types. One time he looked up from instructing a crew to see a female clerk sawing away with a MK19, skipping live grenades off the dirt a few yards from the firing line. Evidently she had messed with the tripod or something had happened to it and she was oblivious that the grenades were hitting so close. Lucky for everyone involved that they didn't go far enough to arm before they bounced off the dirt.

 

[asa sarge]

We qualified at 300 meters back in 1975, but did shoot out to 500 meters. I understand that this has gone away for some time now. If I remember right, we had about 30% trainees who had never fired a rifle prior to coming into the Army. Wonder what that percentage is now?

 

[hippyshake]

I know we do a good bit of long range shooting with our M4s. Usually do KD every month or so and take them to 600m. The EBRs got used a lot farther out. Contrary to what some units, we still train for the fight, the way the fight is for us. And its almost always at a distance.

 

[IC2(SS)19Z50C5]

Why Can’t “Joe” shot well???

This article is spot on… As was the other mentioned article about “Taking the Infantry Back A Mile”. Sadly I see the U.S. Army in action on a daily basis here at work and when it comes to shooting, well, it is sad to see at times… Especially when it comes to crew served weapons in the ground mounted mode. YIKES….!!! More later about this.. After I get the inevitable SABOT rounds fired back my way.

 

[drshame]

I had a chance to spend a weekend training with the AMU folks a few years ago. I saw exceptional talent and patient, eager instructors.
I even had Emil Praslick Jr. spend some time working with me to set a workable kneeling position for an overweight, badly out of shape shooter with a lot of determination.
If the Army's marksmanship skills are lacking, it's not for lack of talent at the AMU.

As proof, they routinely do well collecting metal and standing in the winners' stage at Camp Perry.

 

[hippyshake]

our long range marksmanship is so horrible, that taliban are getting killed faster everyday.

 

[Swamp Rat]

When I was a grunt in the 90's/01, Part of our field ops was unknown distance pop-ups. Shooting for "props" aka beers. Now that has gone to only the KD course that all Marines have to do, and the standards have declined. Marines joke and laugh and work to qual in the pizza box score and some go UNQ like it's no big deal. I felt before I left that the "Every Marine a Rifleman" is a lie, which it is, and uttered by those who hide on the drill field or work at IPAC f-ing up paperwork.

 

[GARRARD]

I don't care for M4's but I wasn't getting enough practice with the Army so I ended up buying an AR. The Army spends tons of money on Engagement Skill Trainers, beam hits, and all this other stuff instead of just buying ammo and getting soldiers to the range. I think the shooting doctrine is sound, it's just a matter of actually practicing it.

 

[RandyB45]

Nonetheless, soldiers involved in the after-action assessment found the greatest problem was a poorly sited outpost that permitted hostiles to infiltrate the position and launch a surprise attack. Beyond that, observers cited inadequate arms maintenance and faulty magazines.

Doesn't sound like a marksmanship problem to me....

Glad to see Emil Praslick is still out there. As an aside, he was my armorer when he was a SPC. Sharp guy. I've no doubt he is still doing great work.

 

[7 for 1]

When I was a grunt in the 90's/01, Part of our field ops was unknown distance pop-ups. Shooting for "props" aka beers. Now that has gone to only the KD course that all Marines have to do, and the standards have declined. Marines joke and laugh and work to qual in the pizza box score and some go UNQ like it's no big deal. I felt before I left that the "Every Marine a Rifleman" is a lie, which it is, and uttered by those who hide on the drill field or work at IPAC f-ing up paperwork.

I was on this part of the forum to bring to attention a new Army ad I saw that featured one of the new awarded MOH heroes, when this post caught my eye. As Im a Marine I do not come here much, but the article caught my eye.

1. To call the Drill Field a place to hide is a joke and an insult to those Marines. Drill Instructors work over 120hrs a week. I know this as Im a Series Commander and I am always with them.

2. Ive been to a many Table 1 ranges, ie KD and have never witnesses anyone laughing and joking about just trying to get a pizza box. Thats too close to unq, a unq equals below avg pro/con marks or an adverse fitrep.

3. With the hi op tempo every Marine is a rifle man, and a post like yours does this generation of Marines a dis-service.

4. For you Army guys, there are profesionals out there and tons of 1stSgt's who remember the old days, good training will come again, just need to wait out this current need for a crap ton of soldiers due to op tempo.

 

[HighAngleHell]

I don't care for M4's but I wasn't getting enough practice with the Army so I ended up buying an AR. The Army spends tons of money on Engagement Skill Trainers, beam hits, and all this other stuff instead of just buying ammo and getting soldiers to the range. I think the shooting doctrine is sound, it's just a matter of actually practicing it.

EST is a little dumb and doesn't replace shooting a the range but I think it does have a place. That place is in Basin training(the only place I have used it. We have one at Bragg but I have never been) It helps explain things like trigger squeeze to some of the slower kids that have never shot a rifle in their life and actually shows if they are doing it or not. Obviously doesn't replace Dime drills. Didn't do much for me but didn't hurt either.

 

[CE1371]

When I was a grunt in the 90's/01, Part of our field ops was unknown distance pop-ups. Shooting for "props" aka beers. Now that has gone to only the KD course that all Marines have to do, and the standards have declined. Marines joke and laugh and work to qual in the pizza box score and some go UNQ like it's no big deal. I felt before I left that the "Every Marine a Rifleman" is a lie, which it is, and uttered by those who hide on the drill field or work at IPAC f-ing up paperwork.

I've never worked with a marine who thought that an UNQ was "no big deal" or was happy about getting a pizza box but you're right about "every marine a rifleman" being a lie. The Marine Corps is not willing to invest the required ammo and training time to make every marine a legitimate rifleman. Doing the table 1 and table 2 courses once a year doesn't cut it either.

 

[Xsail]

Appleseed has trained at least 2 if not 3 National Guard units prior to them shipping out,stuff that the Army is not spending time to do, sad really.

It's been 2 NG forward deploying units and one active Army unit with great reviews/response from the troops. Not so much from the brass cause we want them for 5 days and they don't want to spend the $$$ on 600-800 rounds per person....O.L.

 

[Whatsinaname181]

All my guys can shoot, youd better believe that. I give the USMC their due, and I try and impliment this into my training. From dry-fire to live fire, as well as a basic understanding of ballistics and how to apply this to shooting 300 meters and beyond.

"Privates, whats the most deadly weapon on the battlefield?".... they had better repeat to me, "A WELL TRAINED RIFLEMAN, DRILL SERGEANT!"

The Army will catch up one day... if I have anything to say about it.

 

[Swamp Rat]

I've never worked with a marine who thought that an UNQ was "no big deal" or was happy about getting a pizza box but you're right about "every marine a rifleman" being a lie. The Marine Corps is not willing to invest the required ammo and training time to make every marine a legitimate rifleman. Doing the table 1 and table 2 courses once a year doesn't cut it either.

Witnessed many times on the range. It was disgusting and I about lost my mind when the POGs were smearing cami paint on their mugs during the field fire portion.