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IMO, generalization of the demonstrators is fallacious and the antifa thing is overblown. Some are professional provocateurs and that probably includes some state actors. I think a lot of the demonstrators were probably outraged at the horror of the video and their intent was peaceful protest.
Some were rioters and some of those were smart enough to know that's what brings about real change. I'm not sayin its right, but MLK wouldn't have been lionized if there wasn't a Malcolm X.
In the late afternoon of May 31, I heard on the radio that a curfew had been declared for Los Angeles County, to begin at 6:00 p.m. and to run until sometime the following morning. I texted a friend who lives in Los Angeles and told him that he and his family had 23 minutes to prepare for the lockdown. He wasn’t happy. In fact he made sarcastic references to the anticipated approach of police helicopters to spy out curfew scoffers and arrange for their apprehension. Since he lives in a quiet, uphill suburb with few stores or public buildings and a low population density, I wasn’t surprised when he said “there was basically nothing going on” around there, and certainly nothing that would prompt such draconian measures.
<snip>
Now. Los Angeles County is the home of 10 million people. If it were a state, it would displace Michigan as the tenth most populous. It occupies 4,700 square miles, the size of Delaware and Rhode Island together, and almost the size of Connecticut. Most of it is desert. The rioting and looting that somehow produced the emergency imprisonment of 10 million people spread over 4,700 square miles occurred in two or three tiny areas in the urban center. It’s a mighty long way from that cause to that effect.
http://libertyunbound.com/node/2157
When the police see themselves as an occupying force, the public sees them that way as well.
 

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I really think the looting is 2% of the protests and 99% of the media coverage. Regardless of which side of this current, unAmerican 2 party political/media system you can bet your bottom buck that you're getting the fear end of the stick from your respective figurehead. I know all you older dudes and especially the Veterans know that history shows the truth. Americans can not stand fascism and we are forever heading toward a future where it no longers lingers in our halls. I'd stake my life on the idea that the founding fathers hoped and prayed that fear and ignorance of the other, slavery and state repression would be gone by their grandchildrens generation.

Also I just have to say that this idea that the protesters are somehow trained is patently ridiculous. Do you really think there are protester training camps...in your city?? C'mon. Im an autodidact that's been reading everything I can get my mitts on since I was too young to understand it and I used to be really into the whole Jim Marrs rule by secrecy, rosacrucian, Illuminati thing. It's super interesting but it's really gone off the deep end. Plus I think a hippie invented the Illuminati.


FWIW IMHO AFAIK
 
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Here in Austin TX the city council is having a vote to defund the police and give that money to social workers and neighborhood activists. So, you call 911 and get a social worker?
What will happen when these people calling for the abolishment of the police
meet up with a REAL hardcore criminal? And they will! How long before certain elements
realize that it's open season on citizens?
Personally, I don't call 911
 

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Here in Austin TX the city council is having a vote to defund the police and give that money to social workers and neighborhood activists. So, you call 911 and get a social worker?
What will happen when these people calling for the abolishment of the police
meet up with a REAL hardcore criminal? And they will! How long before certain elements
realize that it's open season on citizens?
Personally, I don't call 911
I don't think it will be that simple. I think people are just generally sick of the status quo and are looking for other options. Who is that hardcore crim you're talking about? And if you don't call 911 then what are you worried about? Open season on citizens? What kind of mad max wild west sheriff fantasy are we trying to perpetuate here? I don't know but I've been everywhere in this country and I've met some messed up people, bottom to top, but the kind of psycho, born and bred criminal that is portrayed by the media and the politicians rarely exists. They're mostly Transports. I've been mugged and defended my life, I've fought desperate men. I've kicked and screamed in the mud and the blood and the beer. Its horrible out there. But the bad guy? It's a Phantasm.

And we don't call for help either unless there's a real medical need. Because what good is an authority that causes more damage.

For anybody that has been effected by crime in a serious way, I just want to say that I am sorry. I don't believe that you should go undefended.
 
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If the citizens COULD use deadly force it would be a good thing. I pity the fool who shoots a looter. He'll be ruined for life amid legal battles.
These aren't your father's riots. In the '60s it was "You loot, we shoot."

Now it's "You loot and we'll help you carry it." however we will use deadly force to keep you out of church.

I have heard anecdotal evidence of some people taking the red pill. I believe the colors will be polarized with less purple.

That said, with all of this feet kissing crap, I pray the silent majority roars in November.
 

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I really think the looting is 2% of the protests and 99% of the media coverage. Regardless of which side of this current, unAmerican 2 party political/media system you can bet your bottom buck that you're getting the fear end of the stick from your respective figurehead. I know all you older dudes and especially the Veterans know that history shows the truth. Americans can not stand fascism and we are forever heading toward a future where it no longers lingers in our halls. I'd stake my life on the idea that the founding fathers hoped and prayed that fear and ignorance of the other, slavery and state repression would be gone by their grandchildrens generation.

Also I just have to say that this idea that the protesters are somehow trained is patently ridiculous. Do you really think there are protester training camps...in your city?? C'mon. Im an autodidact that's been reading everything I can get my mitts on since I was too young to understand it and I used to be really into the whole Jim Marrs rule by secrecy, rosacrucian, Illuminati thing. It's super interesting but it's really gone off the deep end. Plus I think a hippie invented the Illuminati.


FWIW IMHO AFAIK
I think you have the numbers backwards. Ninety nine percent of the riots/looting is covered by two percent of the media. All of the sheep bleat how the protests were peaceful.

I'd like to think if all of America saw the violence the last thing they'd be doing would be to defund the police.

I have to caveat that by saying when I see countless police cars turned over an burned I have lost respect for the rule of law. The few videos I did see with shots fired caused the utes to run away and hit the afterburners.

Hopefully an RoE compliant way to say it is: we really are Mob Rule.
 

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Just so we have fair understanding of where that phrase originated in popular culture. Just about the same time as the gun control act of 1968.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statesman.com/news/20200601/exploring-history-of-when-looting-starts-shooting-starts?template=ampart

"In 1967, as civil rights protests swept the country, Miami police chief Walter Headley vowed to crack down on young African American men who he said "have taken advantage of the civil rights campaign." There had been a series of robberies in the African American community of Liberty City.

"Felons will learn that they can't be bonded out from the morgue," Headley said at a December 1967 press conference. "We don't mind being accused of police brutality. They haven't seen anything yet."


Headley added, "We haven't had any serious problems with civil uprising and looting because I've let the word filter down that when the looting starts, the shooting starts."
 
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As to those attempting to "understand" the motives of the destructive demonstrators I don't have the time nor inclination to engage in such academic research for my strong will to survive permits me to see quite clearly such a group is a threat to me and all I hold dear. The entire fiasco is simply not that complicated nor is it a race issue, it is an attempt to overthrow the Government as we know it, hence the title of anarchists.
I have a neighbor lady that accuses me of being "of the privileged" crowd. Well, damn straight I am and proud to be so simply because I came from very common family on a WV hill farm and worked since I was 15, attended high school, college, University and had a good career. My wife had very similar background and we both have been retired now for some 15+ years and live a very relaxed lifestyle. Neighbor tells me that you don't work and neither does your wife but she is forgetting we both worked for some 40 years to get to the place we no longer have to work. The price of reaching a "privileged state" is a high one and there are those that are not willing to endure that effort or "pay" the price. End result of no ambition is under privileged so do not fault those who paid the price and wear the badge of privileged quite proudly. I rest my case.
 

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'Peaceful' protestors are complicit, leftists favorite word since 2016, in the rioting, looting, and overall violence that has happened. You have a right to peacefully assemble. Also have the right to petition the government. But as soon as one person in your group, no matter the size of said group, starts throwing rocks or destroying property you are no longer a peaceful assembly. It's that simple. These groups certainly don't self police. The communities that are talking about defunding or disbanding their police force certainly aren't self policing.

I was called a terrorist, white supremacists, etc for assembly with fellow Patriots in Richmond on the 20th of January. I don't recall anyone throwing rocks, burning police cars, looting, etc and if someone did do that do you really think the crowd would have tolerated that behavior?
 

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I don't think this is a good thing. People are losing their lives and their property. Division in the country is at an all time high. There is purportedly an old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times." I think we are living through an interesting time.

It is possible that some good will come out of it. Gun sales are at record highs. According to one estimate I heard, there have been 2 million first time buyers during all of this (COVID-19 plus the riots). So this may be tipping a lot of opinions into support of the 2A. The mask is coming off of the media, certain political groups, and politicians. Their true positions are becoming more obvious. I think most of us here already knew, but maybe some more of society is starting to see past the lies and realize that these people aren't in it for the good of Joe and Jane Average. Defunding the police is going to create a lot more "interesting times" in our cities, and people are going to experience life with the consequences of what they voted for. Maybe a lot of people will wake up. Maybe not.

The flip side is that people are scared, and people do stupid things when they are scared, like vote for more government authority. The Patriot Act seemed like a great idea after 9/11, then we realized a few years later what we had allowed to happen to our freedoms. What will America sign up for this time? Overall I am pessimistic. I hope and pray that we get through this and manage to make some positive reforms. We do have a chance. But when we have elected officials abolishing or slashing funds for police over this, it's clear that the idiocracy is already here and lot of people have lost touch with reality. Reality is going to assert itself, and it isn't going to be pleasant.
 

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Here in Austin TX the city council is having a vote to defund the police and give that money to social workers and neighborhood activists. So, you call 911 and get a social worker?
What will happen when these people calling for the abolishment of the police
meet up with a REAL hardcore criminal? And they will! How long before certain elements realize that it's open season on citizens?
Personally, I don't call 911
And if you did call 911 you'll get a person on the phone that is trained to instruct you on how to "deescalate the situation" - or just give them whatever they want. Problem solved...

The call to "Abolish Police" is the latest battle cry. In the Madison, WI, area they blocked traffic on a major hwy and had 3 "demands" - release all the black inmates in the jail, remove police from city schools, and defund police.

The inmates want (demand) to run the asylum. Criminals want free rein and a get-out-of-jail-free card. Nothing new.

It's the response they are receiving that's more the issue.
 

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Look I'm just going to say this and hope that my love for the second amendment, open discourse, and the Constitution in general shines through. But, why is it so hard for people to imagine a world with much more limited policing?? Remember how they weren't so militarized before 9/11? Remember how before that and the internet at large we weren't snapped cleanly in half as a society. I think we have brain fog. It is fundamentally an American process to question all forms of authority. Every day I read something from a 2Aer that reads something like "l don't call the cops" or "come and take it". That is a clarion call to defend justice when the law doesn't carry legitimacy or will cause more harm than good. The guns are to defend the rest of that document we hold so dear. One of the very few ever put to paper that cuts close to describing the natural principles of a truly Free Individual on Earth. Somehow if someone is into the second they have to defend the state as well or they're what? Everyone states so proudly their desire for freedom but coddles the institutions that seek to limit it. Rule of Law in the western world is at its core designed to limit monarchism and other overt abuses of power. The criminal justice sector has gone off the rails and we are all being effected by it. Prosecutors have more power than almost anybody and the Police are becoming an occupying force. We have a duty to question that paradigm. Most cops are good guys but the institution is rotten and you know it. It is rooted in Slave hounding and shipping security. That is a fact. From the Drug War to the prison industrial
complex. We have Debtors Prisons which are prohibited under law in this country but somehow they still exist, and are being run by private companies. And sorry but we have concentration camps on our southern border. Refugees, though they are a heavy weight for us to bear and create huge problems in our society, should never be held in private prisons. This would make the founding fathers sick. What else can we do? Im not sure, I've got some ideas. I do know that the right thing is always the hard thing and if you are vocally willing to break the law then why is it illegitimate for someone else to do so? Im certainly not defending mobs or looting, never that and for the same reason I despise the lynch mob. But what would you do if you're entire culture was kept in kindergarten for 400 years, the bulk of the time being kept as chattel and the latter half living in fear and poverty. What would you do if the police killed your brother. You'd go through channels. Bull. You don't know exactly what you'd do because you haven't got the depth of experience in that regard. There was a burgeoning black middle class right after the civil war. They did bootstrap but Jim Crow killed it. Maybe it's because I'm Irish and my ancestors have been through a cultural annihilation like this, recently. Only the African in America suffered a far worse fate than simple starvation and slaughter. They had their identity systematically torn from them. If you can't understand that you maybe never will and that's ok. But don't begrudge another scorned group the same right to fight as you hold so dearly for yourself. The way I see it we Constitutionalists are on the side of the Underdog and the Thinker. My grandfather killed Nazis and made it home to tell the tale, many other men did not make it back but they left their blood to grow new grass where a jack boot ground it down. We cannot be controlled because we love Freedom. We should share it like water.

IMHO.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/24/debtors-prisons-then-and-now-faq#:~:text=In the United States, debtors,Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection clause.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

https://journals.openedition.org/droitcultures/1580?lang=en#:~:text=Abstract,the outcome of criminal cases.
 

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Look I'm just going to say this and hope that my love for the M14, open discourse, and the Constitution shines through. But, why is it so hard for people to imagine a world with much more limited policing?? Remember how they weren't so militarized before 9/11? Remember how before that and the internet at large we weren't snapped cleanly in half as a society. I think we have brain fog. It is fundamentally an American process to question all forms of authority. Every day I read something from a 2Aer that reads something like "l don't call the cops" or "come and take it". That is a clarion call to defend justice when the law doesn't carry legitimacy or will cause more harm than good. The guns are to defend the rest of that document we hold so dear. One of the very few ever put to paper that cuts close to describing the natural principles of a truly Free Individual on Earth. Somehow if someone is into the second they have to defend the state as well or they're what? Everyone states so proudly their desire for freedom but coddles the institutions that seek to limit it. The criminal justice sector has gone off the rails and we are all being effected by it. Prosecutors have more power than almost anybody and the Police are becoming an occupying force. We have a duty to question that paradigm. Most cops are good guys but the institution is rotten and you know it. It is rooted in Slave hounding and shipping security. That is a fact. From the Drug War to the prison industrial
complex. We have Debtors Prisons which are prohibited under law in this country but somehow they still exist, and are being run by private companies. And sorry but we have concentration camps on our southern border. Refugees, though they are a heavy weight for us to bear and create huge problems in our society, should never be held in private prisons. This would make the founding fathers sick. What else can we do? Im not sure, I've got some ideas. I do know that the right thing is always the hard thing and if you are vocally willing to break the law then why is it illegitimate for someone else to do so? Im certainly not defending mobs or looting, never that and for the same reason I despise the lynch mob. But what would you do if you're entire culture was kept in kindergarten for 400 years, the bulk of the time being kept as chattel and the latter half living in fear and poverty. What would you do if the police killed your brother. You'd go through channels. Bull. You don't know exactly what you'd do because you haven't got the depth of experience in that regard. There was a burgeoning black middle class right after the civil war. They did bootstrap but Jim Crow killed it. Maybe it's because I'm Irish and my ancestors have been through a cultural annihilation like this, recently. Only the African in America suffered a far worse fate than simple starvation and slaughter. They had their identity systematically torn from them. If you can't understand that you maybe never will and that's ok. But don't begrudge another scorned group the same right to fight as you hold so dearly for yourself. The way I see it we Constitutionalists are on the side of the Underdog and the Thinker. My grandfather killed Nazis and made it home to tell the tale, many other men did not make it back but they left their blood to grow new grass where a jack boot ground it down. We cannot be controlled because we love Freedom. We should share it like water.

IMHO.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/24/debtors-prisons-then-and-now-faq#:~:text=In the United States, debtors,Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection clause.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

https://journals.openedition.org/droitcultures/1580?lang=en#:~:text=Abstract,the outcome of criminal cases.
I thanked you however the debtors prison isn't exactly true. No one is going to prison for owing a credit card money. In some way shape or form they were in violation of a court. Admittedly sometimes through no fault of their own. A person spending seven weeks before seeing a judge is reprehensible.

I don't think anyone here will argue for more policing. There's no reason the police should be better armed than an Airborne division. Sadly, while it should have been used on rioters, it was instead used in Waco.

We do laugh when they say total abolition of a police force. Obviously those who are trying to reduce the force are doing so in a small percentage. It's a talking point to get votes, not materially impact the force. Zero police force would be anarchy and in many areas, it's the police that keeps the rioters safe from firearm owners, not the owners safe from the rioters.

I'm pretty sure almost all immigrants at one time or another, save the English, were a persecuted minority. Irish, Chinese, Italians, Germans, Catholics, etc. It's the curse of being new and different. This goes back to colonial times and will not stop. It's human nature.

You are correct. I have not even heard the argument that blacks had their identity taken from them. I'm not a fan of the term African American having friends from Trinidad&Tobago and Jamaica.

Care to enlighten me how one's identity is taken away?
 
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Look I'm just going to say this and hope that my love for the second amendment, open discourse, and the Constitution in general shines through. But, why is it so hard for people to imagine a world with much more limited policing?? Remember how they weren't so militarized before 9/11? Remember how before that and the internet at large we weren't snapped cleanly in half as a society. I think we have brain fog. It is fundamentally an American process to question all forms of authority. Every day I read something from a 2Aer that reads something like "l don't call the cops" or "come and take it". That is a clarion call to defend justice when the law doesn't carry legitimacy or will cause more harm than good. The guns are to defend the rest of that document we hold so dear. One of the very few ever put to paper that cuts close to describing the natural principles of a truly Free Individual on Earth. Somehow if someone is into the second they have to defend the state as well or they're what? Everyone states so proudly their desire for freedom but coddles the institutions that seek to limit it. Rule of Law in the western world is at its core designed to limit monarchism and other overt abuses of power. The criminal justice sector has gone off the rails and we are all being effected by it. Prosecutors have more power than almost anybody and the Police are becoming an occupying force. We have a duty to question that paradigm. Most cops are good guys but the institution is rotten and you know it. It is rooted in Slave hounding and shipping security. That is a fact. From the Drug War to the prison industrial
complex. We have Debtors Prisons which are prohibited under law in this country but somehow they still exist, and are being run by private companies. And sorry but we have concentration camps on our southern border. Refugees, though they are a heavy weight for us to bear and create huge problems in our society, should never be held in private prisons. This would make the founding fathers sick. What else can we do? Im not sure, I've got some ideas. I do know that the right thing is always the hard thing and if you are vocally willing to break the law then why is it illegitimate for someone else to do so? Im certainly not defending mobs or looting, never that and for the same reason I despise the lynch mob. But what would you do if you're entire culture was kept in kindergarten for 400 years, the bulk of the time being kept as chattel and the latter half living in fear and poverty. What would you do if the police killed your brother. You'd go through channels. Bull. You don't know exactly what you'd do because you haven't got the depth of experience in that regard. There was a burgeoning black middle class right after the civil war. They did bootstrap but Jim Crow killed it. Maybe it's because I'm Irish and my ancestors have been through a cultural annihilation like this, recently. Only the African in America suffered a far worse fate than simple starvation and slaughter. They had their identity systematically torn from them. If you can't understand that you maybe never will and that's ok. But don't begrudge another scorned group the same right to fight as you hold so dearly for yourself. The way I see it we Constitutionalists are on the side of the Underdog and the Thinker. My grandfather killed Nazis and made it home to tell the tale, many other men did not make it back but they left their blood to grow new grass where a jack boot ground it down. We cannot be controlled because we love Freedom. We should share it like water.

IMHO.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/24/debtors-prisons-then-and-now-faq#:~:text=In the United States, debtors,Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection clause.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/09/us/disband-police-camden-new-jersey-trnd/index.html

https://journals.openedition.org/droitcultures/1580?lang=en#:~:text=Abstract,the outcome of criminal cases.
I don't disagree with you. At the same time, I don't trust the motives of the people moving to defund or abolish the police today.
1. The elites and the political class in this country - which are the same thing - will always do what's best for themselves. They have been doing it for decades. They don't care about George Floyd, African Americans, or anyone else. They are cutting the police in order to pander to the masses and the angry mob. They are doing it for their own short term gain, with no long-term plan.
2. Undertaking a radical change like this at the behest of an angry mob is stupid. Want more mob violence? Give the mob what they demand. And they just gave them less law enforcement to worry about when they decide to "ask" for the next thing. But these people think that if you give the bully your lunch money today, he won't come for it tomorrow.
3. The people that honestly intend to cut police forces are the brainless idealogues who live in the bubble of their own utopian fantasies. They don't understand the real problems that police deal with. They don't understand why you can't just send a social worker to a call instead of a police officer. They don't understand that poor African Americans will be victimized in higher numbers with fewer officers to take criminals off the street. They believe in their power to create a better world and that their ideas will just magically work, with zero actual data to back any of it. And they will cram it down on their communities in a grotesque social experiment where all the problems with it will be demonstrated. And then they will fight any changes proposed to their utopia, because they will refuse to believe that it isn't working, even with a mountain of contrary data. Just listen to these idiots on the Minneapolis City Council as they give interviews. They have no idea what they are doing.
4. These people always look for ways to increase their own power. You had better believe that is somewhere in their calculation of cutting the police. There is a power grab in there, even if we can't see what it is yet.

I would support an honest conversation about reforming law enforcement and rolling back some of the state's power. I don't believe this is it.
 

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. But, why is it so hard for people to imagine a world with much more limited policing?? Remember how they weren't so militarized before 9/11? Remember how before that and the internet at large we weren't snapped cleanly in half as a society. I think we have brain fog.
Because most of us don't have to imagine a world with much more limited policing. We've seen it. I saw it in Charlottesville several years ago. We've seen it in multiple cities and states across the United States these past few days. All we had to do was flip on the TV and watch the police stand down. Watch people be beaten by crowds.

Limited policing only works if individuals police themselves but video evidence proves that's not the case repeatedly.

Rose colored glasses as far as pre 9/11 imo.
 
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