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Discussion Starter #1
I'm still sighting in my M-14S (18.5" barrel). I recently replaced the Norinco rear sight with one from a USGI M-1 Garand. I was out to the range yesterday and I got a nice group in the bull at 25 yards before I lost the light. Now I've got a "fun" military competition coming up this Saturday and it's unlikely I'll get out to the range again before then.
None of our targets are more than 100 yards, and that's where I want my 'battle zero' to be. I believe that my 25 yard zero is good for targets at 200 yards as well, so what can I do 'in the shop' to set my elevation to be close to that 100 yard zero? Do I click up or down and by how much?

BTW-- 'Back in the day' I was shooting a Garand at human-size silhouettes for Army qualifications. I don't remember what distance we had our battle zero set for, but I do remember a few things:
- At 100 yards we aimed center of mass.
- At 25 yards we aimed at the feet and hit CoM.
- At 300 yards we aimed just over the head to hit CoM.
- At 350 yards the target was totally obscured by the front blade.

What if I accept the 25/200 sight-in and recalibrate my elevation drum to read 200 yd(?) then tightened it and rolled it down til it reads 100? Wouldn't that get me near CoM at 100 years?
Is the difference that great that I should be worred? What if I left the sight as is, then went out and banged away at anything that popped up from 25 to 100?

If any member could give me some pointers regarding resetting my elevation for that 100 yard zero before the match, I'd be much obliged.
SL

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I shoot a lot at 25 yards. With Lake City ammo my 25 yard zero corresponds to 200 yards. I've tested this out to 400. So yes, calibrate your elevation ring to 200.
 

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Kerp in mind your 25 yard zero has to be dead on. For instance, being just 1/2" high at 25 yards would put you 4" high at 200 yards.
 

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You didn't say what weight bullet your shooting. A 168gr at 2600fps, zeroed at 200, will be about 2.2" high at 100yds.
A 150gr bullet will be flatter, a 175gr bullet will have more of an arc.
Get yourself an exterior ballistics program, or check out the back of a reloading manual.
Don't put too much faith in where 25yd shots will be further out. Sighting in at 25 is a semi emergency expedient or verification.
 

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Before you do any tinkering with the sight - carefully count down the elev clicks to the bottom (move the elev knob CCW) so you know how to reset the 25 yard setting.

For your 25 yard sight-in

- what size target were you using
- where on the target were you aiming
- where were the bullets hitting

If the 25 yard point-of-aim was the point-of-impact, then lower the elev by 1 click and you should be good for hitting paper plate size targets out to 100 yards.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 

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I don't put any stock in the "25 yard zero" method, for the same reason that Stuntbutt points out. That said, I plugged a few numbers into a ballistics program: SMK168 at 2560fps, zeroed at 200 yards. The computer says that the bullet will be 1.6 inches high at 100 yards--about a minute and a half. YMMV

Tim
 

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Remember, those are general rules, that is 25=200. Every rifle/body type can be different. I zeroed mine this way some time ago. Yet now, these days, with my light shooting jacket on (that can change stuff) my 200 zero actually works better for me at 100, so I need to look into that myself.

Once you have your 25, you should be able to roll back 2-3 clicks to bring it into 100. That is, you come down to get your 100, go back up for your 25/200 and go up for 300 etc. from there.

I will say, I shoot a Scout and my comeups are definitely different from m1/m14 general come ups, especially as you start to reach out there towards 4 or 500. Just get some real distance time with your rifle if you can.

PS, all this does not really take into account any special loads you are doing, its really a general rule of use with standard NATO 147gr.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Wow, thx for all those prompt replies, fellas! Yeah, as I stated in my OP, time is an issue here. I've got the best zero ever for 25 yards, shooting "NATO" (NORINCO) 147gr copperwash. They seem to work fine as far as cycling (no fails in ~300 rnds). Maybe their accuracy is not the best, but that may be more down to the shooter than the ammo...
Anyway, I'm happy with the groups I got at 25 yd, but it got dark before I was able to try for my 100 and I won't have a chance to get out there again before my competition
(100 yds or less) in two days' time.

My 25yd zero is at 19 clicks elevation. The drum is calibrated so that the "2" on the dial is at the index mark. Going DOWN 3 clicks sees the index on the "1".

I know 19 clicks seems like a lot, but my front blade is taller than the one on the (22") M-14. After this shoot is over one of my next projects is to file 0.10" off that blade which ought to get my aperture down out of the stratosphere to a more reasonable 7-8 clicks.

I'm not going to think about my rear sight again until next year.
The judges are not measuring our groups with a micrometer--

The exercise is 25 rounds total at a silhouette, distance and stance to be determined by the range officer. It could be all 25 from the bench at 100 yds, or it could be moving downrange in line abreast with a combination of off-hand, kneeling, and rapid fire/from the hip at 25 yds. About the only thing we don't get to do is run up and bayonet the thing.

As I said, it's a "fun" shoot. But if I can get close to a 6 MOA group, or most of the holes into a 6" circle at 100 yards, I'll be extremely pleased.
If I got all 25 holes into the center of mass, that'd be OK, too!
If I did that I might even win. GI5

Thanks again for your timely advice,
SL
M48TNK
 

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Discussion Starter #9
It wasn't easy...!

Well, it turns out the entire shoot (as decreed by the Range Officer) was 25 rounds, offhand (i.e. standing, unsupported)!
Using the sling, my first five rounds were pretty good--nice sight picture, textbook trigger. After that things got a lot more difficult. Dam, I forgot how hard it is to hold a ten pound rifle up and make every round count.
I must've started to fatigue, cos I was getting wobbly and it was getting harder to hold that sight picture. The longer I took, the worse I got. I had to stop for a mini-break before I came down with an anxiety attack YIKES1 Pretty soon there was guys with bolt actions and old breech-loaders who were finishing and I still had ten rounds left to go. I know the best way is to sight and fire quickly before you start to tire, but by then the muzzle was swaying so much I decided to just bang away and hope for the best. I think I was the last one to finish. Whew! I believe that's the first time I've ever had to fire that many consecutive rounds at that distance within that time limit.
When it came time to go retrieve our targets I was filled with dread.
Did I even once manage to hit the big cardboard??
Back at the clubhouse the scores were tallied and, unbelievably, I had 23 holes in Center of Mass! Double 'Whew'!
Of course I didn't have the highest score, but neither was I the lowest. 'Mid-pack'. 'The gentleman's "C"... I'll take it.

One of my training plans for 2014 is to practice holding that rifle in the off-hand position for increasingly longer duration to strengthen those old muscles so I can be more prepared the next time they call for that type of shooting. I do practice the four basic positions at home several times a week just to keep my body flexible, but I never held that one for very long.

For my next visit to the range I'm bringing sand bags to build a really solid placement for my M-14 and do some serious sighting-in,
but for now I'm happy with that 25-200 I got.
'thx' to you all and, Merry Christmas! GI2
 

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If you were here in the states, I would reccomend that you attend an Appleseed shoot to dust off your skills and start to better understand building and supporting the rifle with good form.

I shoot Garand CMP matches and that is a beast to hold up for 10 shots. They also do not let you sling in for standing, so its all you and that log out there. You have to take time between shots to relax, breathe normal and get ready for the next shot. Course I don't know your time constraints. We usually keep a stool beside us to rest the rifle and work over 10 minutes.

I find, if I havn't settled in properly in the first breath or two, relax, back out and start again. If you go longer than 5 or six seconds, you start to lose oxygen, you can't focus and you begin to wobble too much.
 

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The Battlesight Zero for the M14 is 25m/250m, using US M80 Ball. At 25 meters, the rounds should impact 4.6cm (1.8 inches) above the point of aim. Then calibrate your rear sight to the 250m mark.

After that, setting your sight at 100m should impact properly at 100m.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Deja vu?

If you were here in the states, I would reccomend ... etc.
You have to take time between shots to relax, breathe normal and get ready for the next shot. Course I don't know your time constraints. We usually keep a stool beside us to rest the rifle and work over 10 minutes.
I find, if I havn't settled in properly in the first breath or two, relax, back out and start again. If you go longer than 5 or six seconds, you start to lose oxygen, you can't focus and you begin to wobble too much.
Yeah, we're pretty much living in the stix up here on the Island, especially when it comes to shooting programmes and facilities.
We just have to make do.

Believe me, I qualified three times as "Expert Rifleman" on the old "Train Fire" ranges: Once on the M-1, and twice on the M-14, so I used to know some of these things. But that was...FIFTY YEARS AGO now! It's been fun having these things refreshed in my mind recently--"Deja vu" all over again! GI1
I'm just on my way out to the shop to give my rifle a thorough cleaning (I swabbed the bore and bolt-face as soon as I got home).
Man, does that Norinco "NATO" ammo ever leave a bunch of black guk behind!

Thanks for the encouragement, and all the best for 2014!
SL
 

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Discussion Starter #13
100 yards, that's my max.

The Battlesight Zero for the M14 is 25m/250m, using US M80 Ball. At 25 meters, the rounds should impact 4.6cm (1.8 inches) above the point of aim. Then calibrate your rear sight to the 250m mark.
After that, setting your sight at 100m should impact properly at 100m.
Er, what you've said makes perfect sense to me. But at my 25 yard sight-in, all of my rounds went thru the center of the bull because that's what I thought I was supposed to do. (?).
See, all I could do was to make my point of impact (at 25 yards) join with my point of aim, and call that sighted in. Our maximum range (at this venue) is just 100 yards (115m to the steel pit) so there's no way I can actually sight in at 200 or 250. I'm having to extrapolate my "25 yard zero" out to 200, then interpolate back to where my 100 yard zero should be, because that is where most of our targets stand.
On my next outing I will be sighting in at 100 yards. Unless I find another shooting venue with greater distance, I'll never be shooting at anything beyond 100.
SL
BTW-- My "M-14" is wearing the rear sight from an M-1 Garand, so it's in yards, not meters.
 
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