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How good are you – really?

8235 Views 139 Replies 58 Participants Last post by  gkainz
We all know them. They’re the ones on the internet that can shoot one MOA, “all day long.”

Here are the targets for NRA High-Power Rifle Competition:

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With all of these people who “can shoot 1 MOA, all day long,” why do we not see more 500-50X scores at matches? Okay, maybe 490-40X, because standing offhand is hard.

I don’t think all of the internet 1 MOA shooters are telling the truth. :cautious:

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From Accuracy to Inaccuracy . . .

The specification accuracy for an M4A1 Carbine is that ten shots will be fired and the extreme spread of those ten shots will be less than 5.6 inches at 100 yards. Or, more simply: 5.6 MOA. With the M14 was an extreme spread of 6.1 inches, but later tightened up for a figure of merit (FM) that would be 3.2 inches. The FM is just the average of the extreme vertical and the extreme horizontal spreads.

My god! How can we issues such an inaccurate things? 6 MOA? 5.6 MOA? The horror, the horror, the horror . . .

Well, let’s say we have one of those super talented shooters that can actually shoot a 500-24X on an NRA National Match Couse, and he was issued one of those horrible 5.6 MOA carbines, how bad would he do?

Assumptions: The shooter never makes an aiming error at the ten ring, and the distribution across the maximum dispersion (5.6 MOA) is normal and that 2 standard deviations falls inside out 5.6 moa limit.

Based on the size of the 10 ring (in MOA), how it compares to the 5.6 MOA, and the percentage of bullet fall in each standard deviation, you get:

For a National Match Course of fire with 50 rounds and maximum of 500 points, our expert shooting with a 5.6 MOA Carbine would probably* shoot a 470 plus or minus ten points, That’s not bad.

If we go back to the early 1960s and give another expert marksman one of those 6.0 MOA M14s and let’s see (statistically) how he should do on the old “A”-course.

The “A” Target has a black filled 5 ring (highest score) 12 inches in diameter and is used on the 200 and 300 yard line.

The “D” Target is a human outline filled with black 19” at the shoulder and 26” tall, this is also valued at 5. This target is used for the 300 yard prone rapid string.

The “B” Target has a black filled 5-ring 20 inches in diameter.

Stage 1 - 10 rounds, standing, Off-hand, slow fire, at 200 yard at an A-Target, 12 inches is 6 MOA so 50 points is possible.

Stage 2 - 5 rounds, sitting, slow fire at 300 yards at an A-Target. 12 inches is only 4 MOA, so statistically you will average 24 points.

Stage 3 - 5 rounds, kneeling, slow fire at 300 yards at an A-Target. Again, 24 points.

Stage 4 - 10 rounds, prone slow fire at 500 yards at a B-Target. The 20 inch 5-ring is again only 4 MOA, so statistically 48 points.

Stage 5 - two magazines of 5 rounds, standing to sitting, rapid fire at 200 yards at a D-Target, (see below).

Stage 6 - two magazines of 5 rounds, standing to prone, rapid fire at 300 yards at a D-Target. The black silhouette of the D-Target is 19 inches wide, the height is 26 inches, with the ‘head’ being about 7 inches, so the body rectangle is 19” by 19”, the 6 MOA dispersion is within the black. If you do your parts, you get all 50 points for these two stages.

Probable score if the shooter make no errors – 246.

That will get you that Expert badge.

So, the Indian can have a pretty bad bow and still kill many deer, if he’s a good Indian.

How good are you?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
* If he shot an infinite number of matches, his average score would be somewhere in that range.
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This was about a year ago. A Springfield M1A standard, at 200 yards, with iron sights. My best shooting day ever.


View attachment 498799
I havent shot HP for some years but when I did, I was a Master on SR over the course and just a couple matches shy of making High Master when I got too busy with life, kids etc. Shooting very close to 97 percent on a regular basis.
Had younger eyes then and was shooting a lot of matches with a Glen Nelson Super Match.
I quit HP in the early to mid 90's.
It was just taking up too much time.
Back then we shot across the course to 600 yards with iron sights. That was a challenge and was lots of fun! I shot high power from 1990-2000 but I also had to give it up due to family obligations. I understand that now they are allowing optics in the matches. Doesn't seem fair
 

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Back then we shot across the course to 600 yards with iron sights. That was a challenge and was lots of fun! I shot high power from 1990-2000 but I also had to give it up due to family obligations. I understand that now they are allowing optics in the matches. Doesn't seem fair
I got out just after you got into it, about 1992. And yeah, no scopes.
 

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We all know them. They’re the ones on the internet that can shoot one MOA, “all day long.”

Here are the targets for NRA High-Power Rifle Competition:

View attachment 498795

View attachment 498796

View attachment 498797

With all of these people who “can shoot 1 MOA, all day long,” why do we not see more 500-50X scores at matches? Okay, maybe 490-40X, because standing offhand is hard.

I don’t think all of the internet 1 MOA shooters are telling the truth. :cautious:

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

From Accuracy to Inaccuracy . . .

The specification accuracy for an M4A1 Carbine is that ten shots will be fired and the extreme spread of those ten shots will be less than 5.6 inches at 100 yards. Or, more simply: 5.6 MOA. With the M14 was an extreme spread of 6.1 inches, but later tightened up for a figure of merit (FM) that would be 3.2 inches. The FM is just the average of the extreme vertical and the extreme horizontal spreads.

My god! How can we issues such an inaccurate things? 6 MOA? 5.6 MOA? The horror, the horror, the horror . . .

Well, let’s say we have one of those super talented shooters that can actually shoot a 500-24X on an NRA National Match Couse, and he was issued one of those horrible 5.6 MOA carbines, how bad would he do?

Assumptions: The shooter never makes an aiming error at the ten ring, and the distribution across the maximum dispersion (5.6 MOA) is normal and that 2 standard deviations falls inside out 5.6 moa limit.

Based on the size of the 10 ring (in MOA), how it compares to the 5.6 MOA, and the percentage of bullet fall in each standard deviation, you get:

For a National Match Course of fire with 50 rounds and maximum of 500 points, our expert shooting with a 5.6 MOA Carbine would probably* shoot a 470 plus or minus ten points, That’s not bad.

If we go back to the early 1960s and give another expert marksman one of those 6.0 MOA M14s and let’s see (statistically) how he should do on the old “A”-course.

The “A” Target has a black filled 5 ring (highest score) 12 inches in diameter and is used on the 200 and 300 yard line.

The “D” Target is a human outline filled with black 19” at the shoulder and 26” tall, this is also valued at 5. This target is used for the 300 yard prone rapid string.

The “B” Target has a black filled 5-ring 20 inches in diameter.

Stage 1 - 10 rounds, standing, Off-hand, slow fire, at 200 yard at an A-Target, 12 inches is 6 MOA so 50 points is possible.

Stage 2 - 5 rounds, sitting, slow fire at 300 yards at an A-Target. 12 inches is only 4 MOA, so statistically you will average 24 points.

Stage 3 - 5 rounds, kneeling, slow fire at 300 yards at an A-Target. Again, 24 points.

Stage 4 - 10 rounds, prone slow fire at 500 yards at a B-Target. The 20 inch 5-ring is again only 4 MOA, so statistically 48 points.
Stage 5 - two magazines of 5 rounds, standing to sitting, rapid fire at 200 yards at a D-Target, (see below).

Stage 6 - two magazines of 5 rounds, standing to prone, rapid fire at 300 yards at a D-Target. The black silhouette of the D-Target is 19 inches wide, the height is 26 inches, with the ‘head’ being about 7 inches, so the body rectangle is 19” by 19”, the 6 MOA dispersion is within the black. If you do your parts, you get all 50 points for these two stages.

Probable score if the shooter make no errors – 246.

That will get you that Expert badge.

So, the Indian can have a pretty bad bow and still kill many deer, if he’s a good Indian.

How good are you?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
* If he shot an infinite number of matches, his average score would be somewhere in that range.
I’m just happy to hit the Target, hitting in the Black is a Bonus!
 

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Seems like alot of conflating between multiple different philosophies.

Accuracy
Precision
Marksmanship
Competition
And well... measurement. Moa is just an angular measurement. 1" @100 yards. Rounded down slightly.


Some aren't really mutually exclusive from each other but others I don't really think are directly related so to speak.

For example someone can be accurate but not precise. Or precise but not accurate.
 

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Don't forget, the Interservice individual record, 995-50, set by a Marine shooting a 14 technically was never broken by the 16. It wasn't till optics was legalized that the score was broken.
M14 NM vs M16 w/optics. It's like comparing a full-dress Harley to a Ninja. Two completely different systems, if you ask me. Both great tools, just a matter of what the job is. Can't tell a lie, I'd be hard pressed not to go with the14; just love that gun! P.S. I was at the '94 Interservice Matches when that Marine shot that score and won. Pissed the Army Col off something fierce. Deep down we all knew it was a matter of time, yet it was another example of training over technology, rather like the Marine Corsair pilot that shot down the Mig over Korea. Ther was and is still something about shooting across the course with an M14. Looks and feel, accuracy and dependability. she has it all.
 

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I'm a long time lurker, post very little, but have followed this post with fascination and wanted to add my thoughts/limited experience. As primary care giver, for my 87 yr old Mom, my time to do anything else is very limited as she requires almost 24/7 care. Wasn't always this way, obviously. In the days when I had a little more "spare time", I shot much more. Never been in competition with anything or anyone, other than myself, my loading components and rifles. I have 4 rifles that..... ((1. 20"AR15 that I built, 2. 16" Rock River AR15 that I bought back in the "Ban Years,3. Rock River LAR8 308, bought before any MOA guarantee came with anything, 4. A Weatherby Vanguard in .308 also bought before any accuracy guarantee was offered)). .......that I managed work-up loads for that were sub moa. Repeatable, but NEVER all day long and they were only 3 shot groups at 100 yards, with front rest and rear bag. 100 is the furthest possible at the Missouri Department of Conservation range i use. I always wanted to stretch it out, prob a waste of ammo at this point in time... I'm 60 yrs old now, with bad eyes even wearing glasses, lol. Have a bit of shaky going on, and it's been awhile since I had time to shoot those accurate rifle/load combinations. I do own my 2nd M1A, a S/A loaded. I put a decent scope on it and have work-ups ready to go, plan on shooting when time allows. So far it only has 20 rounds thru it, open sights at short range to verify function, right after I bought it new 3+ years ago.As a younger man I was fair with open sights, but most of my deer have been killed using a Savage 110, 300 Win Mag w/an old Redfield 3-9×40 bought in 1989. My best shot could have been accidental, but the deer died and was hit where i was aiming, 1 shot, running at approx 275 yards. 4 years ago on public land from a ground blind, not far from parking area. Killed many from a tree stand (way back in there, lol) same combo but before I had all this titanium in my lower back and a new hip.

I love the M1A, have never shot an actual M14. I really enjoy reading this forum and have 100% respect for Veterans here, and everywhere !! Long story why I have 2nd M1A instead of my 1st, and this post is already WAY TOO LONG, Sorry. Best Wishes to ALL, from Brad, in West Central Missouri.

PS. There is 1 more that shoots repeatable sub moa, with my handloads. Savage 110 w plastic stock, in .243. It was my son's deer rifle, now belongs to his little sister. We lost Bill 15 years ago.
 

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M14 NM vs M16 w/optics. It's like comparing a full-dress Harley to a Ninja. Two completely different systems, if you ask me. Both great tools, just a matter of what the job is. Can't tell a lie, I'd be hard pressed not to go with the14; just love that gun! P.S. I was at the '94 Interservice Matches when that Marine shot that score and won. Pissed the Army Col off something fierce. Deep down we all knew it was a matter of time, yet it was another example of training over technology, rather like the Marine Corsair pilot that shot down the Mig over Korea. Ther was and is still something about shooting across the course with an M14. Looks and feel, accuracy and dependability. she has it all.
When I started Highpower it was with an out of the box Colt Hbar using Campions Choice (HSM) 69 grainers across the course. I did ok even being the odd one out with the mouse gun.
Then it became time to get "serious", got the M1A and the gear. We didn't realize the sun was setting on .30 cal, did well with it, got my first 8 point leg with it.
Then the ARs showed up, we held our own with scores but were eaten alive in X count. Bought an Armalite N.M. upper and joined the new club, legged out and that was that.
Do I shoot that good any more? No. Do I try? Yes. M.O.A. all day? Never, just when it counted.😉
 

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I got out just after you got into it, about 1992. And yeah, no scopes.
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I just came home from the range today where I shot my 2 m1as at 100 yards with iron sights. I love iron sights! I also shoot my AR 15 and AR10 with iron sights. Up until a year ago, I had never shot any of my rifles with scopes but I am 76 years old now and every now and then, when the sunlight fades away in the afternoon, I will mount a scope on my ARs, but not my M1As. I guess i am a diehard iron sight user due to my High power experience
 

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When I started Highpower it was with an out of the box Colt Hbar using Campions Choice (HSM) 69 grainers across the course. I did ok even being the odd one out with the mouse gun.
Then it became time to get "serious", got the M1A and the gear. We didn't realize the sun was setting on .30 cal, did well with it, got my first 8 point leg with it.
Then the ARs showed up, we held our own with scores but were eaten alive in X count. Bought an Armalite N.M. upper and joined the new club, legged out and that was that.
Do I shoot that good any more? No. Do I try? Yes. M.O.A. all day? Never, just when it counted.😉
I started shooting high power with a WWII M1 garand that still had a great bore. The rapid fire sequence back then (I dont know what it is now) required us to shoot 2 rounds, drop the magazine and insert a new magazine with 8 rounds. I think this was in deference to the 8 round garand clip. I shot the garand across the course until one day,at the 300 yard line,my garand went full auto! I had a good prone position with a tight sling and I was in the middle of my 8 round rapid course when suddenly I was shooting a .30 cal machine gun! The ex-army colonel in charge of our civilian rifle club immediately stormed over and demanded that I take that #%$&** rifle off the range and to not come back until I had a suitable replacement. I was about to ask him to score my target first, but fortunately, discretion overcame valor. The Colonel was the first one to greet me when I went to the next high power 88 round across the course match and demanded to see my rifle. I was allowed to shoot the course Only after I showed him my brand new SAI M1A! Thus began my love affair with the M1A. I later went to a colt HBAR Mt6601 match tuned AR15 with a krigger trigger and barrel which I still shoot; however, I find that shooting my M1As are more satisfying. I guess I am an old moss back!

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Personal bests.....but still not 1 MOA "all day".
200 rapid M14
View attachment 498810


300 rapid (M14)



500 slow-fire (AR15 though)
Great shooting. I was not that good!
 

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I had my Garand go full auto during a match also, on the 300 yard line, prone, solid position. First two, fine, stuff in the enblock let the bolt fly, aimed, pulled the trigger, RRRRRRRR-PING!
They scored it, kept them within the seven ring, an older Army guy tells me I would have made a good B.A.R. guy.
 

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I had my Garand go full auto during a match also, on the 300 yard line, prone, solid position. First two, fine, stuff in the enblock let the bolt fly, aimed, pulled the trigger, RRRRRRRR-PING!
They scored it, kept them within the seven ring, an older Army guy tells me I would have made a good B.A.R. guy.
They scored it? Wow! The colonel was so pissed he wouldn’t talk to me at All after that happened!
 

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It was on the second string, Range Officer allowed me to continue since the rest of the match was slow fire back at 600.
Turned it in to my smithy, gave it the once over, couldn't find anything wrong, gave it his blessing, never happened again.
 

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It was on the second string, Range Officer allowed me to continue since the rest of the match was slow fire back at 600.
Turned it in to my smithy, gave it the once over, couldn't find anything wrong, gave it his blessing, never happened again.
Wow! That was cool! I recently took that garand to my gunsmith and he said he fixed it, but I have not had the nerve to take it to a range and try it. If it went full auto again, I would be banned for life!
 
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