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With a pistol - not that bad.

NRA Master, State Champ in a couple pistol disciplines, and at least 1 Olympic Minimum Qualifying Score (MQS) in air pistol - back in the day...

With a rifle - not that good.

Shooting 1 MOA off a bench or bag doesn't qualify in my opinion. Even I can do that.

The real test is shooting with a sling, and especially off-hand. You're not "good" until you can shoot solid scores, in position, at distance, in competition.

I've got a ways to go...
I consider it a successful day if I could just get in position. 😀
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 · (Edited)
I guess it depends on your equipment and ammo.


WIth an standard factory SA M1A and off the shelf ammo I would say 1 MOA would be exceptional on the bench with bags!

Springfield Armory ( std ) new rifles only guarantee MOA of 1.5
If you think a guarantee of 1.5 MOA is bad, I challenge you to to the accuracy quiz

Gentlemen, As Lysander noted, extreme spread group size is highly dependent on the sample size. 5 shot groups are not as large as 10 shot groups. In fact, the extreme spread continues until the sample size (number of shots) is about 70. The rate of group size increase diminishes with each addition shot.

It is incorrect to compare shot groups of different sample sizes. I personally believe that shot groups of less than 10 shots are highly questionable.
Five rounds is statistically the most efficient number of rounds to estimate group size. Ten does give much better results, but not twice as good, the two calculated results will be within 10% to 15% of each other.
 

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I've been shooting HP since 1985, I find the USMC guide of "perfect practice makes perfect" is still valid today. And I find the more I practice the luckier I get. First target is the HEX system results from a match, second was practice this past Tuesday on Shotmarker. These were shot with scoped bolt guns and not M14 type rifles. The first in 6 x 47 Lapua, the second in .284 Winchester.

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Five rounds is statistically the most efficient number of rounds to estimate group size. Ten does give much better results, but not twice as good, the two calculated results will be within 10% to 15% of each other.
Yep, if I did my calculations correctly (using a t distribution), the estimated difference between the extreme spread for a sample size of 5 (4 degrees of freedom) and a sample size of 10 (9 degrees of freedom) is approx. 10%. The smaller sample size yielding the smaller extreme spread.

However, there is perhaps an even larger issue and that is the repeatability of measurements with small sample sizes. Even using 10 samples, that is considerably below the threshold of 30 samples which is the normally accepted dividing line between small sample sizes and large sample sizes. Unless one wants to measure multiple 5 round groups and average them, the confidence one has in a 5 shot group is relatively low.

The real issue as you noted earlier is that extreme spread places a very high emphasis on 2 shots. That simply isn’t very good when a high degree of precision is required.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Yep, if I did my calculations correctly (using a t distribution), the estimated difference between the extreme spread for a sample size of 5 (4 degrees of freedom) and a sample size of 10 (9 degrees of freedom) is approx. 10%. The smaller sample size yielding the smaller extreme spread.

However, there is perhaps an even larger issue and that is the repeatability of measurements with small sample sizes. Even using 10 samples, that is considerably below the threshold of 30 samples which is the normally accepted dividing line between small sample sizes and large sample sizes. Unless one wants to measure multiple 5 round groups and average them, the confidence one has in a 5 shot group is relatively low.

The real issue as you noted earlier is that extreme spread places a very high emphasis on 2 shots. That simply isn’t very good when a high degree of precision is required.
If you want a number to brag to your friends about, or track your progress over the years, 5 rounds is enough.

If the buyer is not going to pay you for 10 million rounds of ammunition, because it doesn't meet specifications, you might want to shoot a few more.
 

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I make it a personal habit when shooting around others to shoot the second 5 rounds of a 10 round string over the target.
I call it my 10 rounds in 5 holes effect, or my “10 n 5” for short.
 

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Love seeing these targets. Back in the day, at CMP Perry, there were some crazy good scores from M14 service rifles.

I agree the "all day 1 MOA" shooters are both counting very limited best shots and shooting off of bench/bags or a vice

With my M1A and irons Im classified as marksman, with AR and 4x I'm a low expert. There's not a ton of room between the two ... 6 percent
 
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I know my limits. Give me a bench and my 8x optic on my M14, and I can hold the 10 ring at 200 yards. Take away either, and I get significantly worse. I keep a list of things I want to improve that I try to work on each range visit.

Regarding today's MOA-all-day keyboard warriors, I see a lot of guys who never leave the 50 yard range and always use the bench. Most of them have optics. I would bet good money that a lot of keyboard warriors belong to this set. A lot of people are influenced by the marketing and believe that they have bought performance by buying gear. A lot of them don't appreciate the difference between being able to shoot MOA at 50 yards and being able to shoot MOA at 500 yards.
 

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Back in the day? I could shoot your eye out 1/2 MOA with iron sights at 100yd. But today at advanced senior citizen? Maybe with optics and handloaded ammunition I can muster 1 MOA.

They didn't call me Cool Breeze for nothing...
 

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I thought a Cool Breeze signified a miss…….

Actually? I always qualified expert on the M16, 40 out of 40. My callsign "Cool Breeze" was bestowed upon me by a 1st Sergeant that hated my guts, because I had an aptitude for criminality and getting away with it he never did nail me.

The name kinda stuck and I earned it :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
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