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Ah yes, the "Why I hate the 7.62mm NATO and transferred that hate to the M14" video. He talks for an hour and doesn't list a single objective reason to hate the M14. The best he can come up with is that he thinks the Army should have waited for the AR-10 to be developed and adopted it. Of course that ignores the fact that we were in the middle of the cold war and still using the M1.
That's pretty much it. He wanted the Army to adopt something that simply wasn't even remotely ready to be put into production. Heck, I think it wasn't even a good working prototype at that stage of the game.

The man is a lover of all things AR and that is fine. However, his bias doesn't allow him to view history objectively. When viewing history objectively, one must put oneself in the time and disregard the "knowledge" gained after that time period. He fails to do that in a big way.
 

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I quickly scanned through all 11 pages, so to toss in two more cents:
I grew up during the M14 era, when they were the rifle of the Marine Corps, and were held in much higher regard than the problematic early M16s. In fact, many here should remember how the M16/AR was widely disliked into the '90s!

The M14 is not intended to be a 'precision' rifle. It was designed and built as a 3moa combat rifle. The Marines passed on trying to make it a sniper rifle, and the Army has struggled to make it a durable sniper rifle; this is part of the reason for modern dislike. Soldiers in the GWOT didn't or couldn't give the rifle the care it needed and quickly became disenchanted with it, brought that dislike home and talked about it. Any time you try to make a tool do something it wasn't intended to do, you will be disappointed. Another example is the M1 carbine being expected to match the M1 rifle.
 

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The original AR10 didn't fare well in 308. By the time the rifle was refined into what's called the Portuguese Model it weighed as much as the M14. Maybe even a little more. Not to say that it probably wouldn't have been a good rifle but by then the US (probably mostly thanks to McNamara) was already looking for the SCHV option.

The US was already making plans to phase out most of the small arms used in WWII but the Korean War derailed most of that. The M1 was brought back into production. Had the Korean War not happened we likely would have had the Harvey Rifle or some version of the M14 much sooner.

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Exactly. The AR-10 was a brand new design in 1957. The T44 and the FAL had undergone years of refinement at that point as a result of the trials. Both were better rifles than the AR-10 in 1957 when the decision was made. The Army knew about the AK-47 and knew they needed to replace the M1. War was a real threat and they didn't want to wait for another rifle to be developed. Mr. Bartocci ignores all of that.

Had we adopted the AR-10 in 1957, it would have been as bad or worse than when we adopted the M16. Rushing a rifle into service without going through a proper trials and development process never ends well. I think the AR-10 had a lot of potential, but it was late to the 7.62mm service rifle party.
 

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Ah yes, the "Why I hate the 7.62mm NATO and transferred that hate to the M14" video. He talks for an hour and doesn't list a single objective reason to hate the M14. The best he can come up with is that he thinks the Army should have waited for the AR-10 to be developed and adopted it. Of course that ignores the fact that we were in the middle of the cold war and still using the M1.
In January 1957, Aberdeen Proving Grounds did test the AR-10, with the standard temperate test schedule. They actually gave it a pretty decent grade despite the fact that:

1) the original barrel blew up during the endurance test.
2) the gas tube warped during the cook-off test
3) operation became sluggish due to carbon built up on the outside of the bolt carrier (this was an early side entry gas system)
4) a number of parts broke, to include the gas transfer bracket, the extractor, its spring, the flash hider . . .

In February 1957 the decision to adopt either the T44 or T48 was made, after 5 years testing and development of both rifles (since 1952).

The idea that the Army should further delay the replacement of the M1 and M1918 another 5 years is ridiculous.

On a different note, another thing often said about the M14 is the Ordnance Department had a "Not Invented Here Mentality", which is just plain wrong. Starting with the dawn of the smokeless powder era and going up to the adoption of the M16, the following weapons were adopted from "not here":

NOT INVENTED BY ORDNANCE (in house, Springfield, Watervliet, Rock Island, etc):

Rifles
M1892, M1896, M1898 Rifles and Carbines - Norwegian, Krag-Jorgensen
M1903, M1903A1, M1903A3 Rifle - German, Mauser
M1895 Lee-Navy

Pistols
M1892, M1894, M1901, M1903 Revolvers - Colt
M1905 Revolver - Colt
M1911 - John M. Browning/Colt

Machine Guns
M1895 - John M. Browning/Colt
M1909 - Benét—Mercié, French
M1916 - Maxim/Vickers - UK
M1917 - John M. Browning
M1918 - John M. Browning
M1919 - John M. Browning/Colt
M1921 - John M. Browning/Colt
Lewis - Lewis
M1928 -Thompson
M60 - Based on the German FG-42
M85, .50 Caliber - Aircraft Armament Inc (under contract)

Automatic Cannon
Oerlikon 20mm Mk 1 through Mk 4, Swiss
Bofors 40mm, M1, Mk 1, Mk 2 - Swedish
Hispano-Suiza HS 404, M1, M2, M3, M24, Mk12 - Spanish
M61 20mm - General Electric (under contract)
M39 20mm - Ford Motor Co. (based on the German MG 213, under contract)
M139 20mm - H.S. 820 Spanish-Swiss

Artillery
37mm Anti-Tank Gun, M3 (based on the German PaK 36)
75mm Howitzer - French 75mm
75mm Tank Gun, M3 - Based on the French 75mm
155mm Howitzer, M1918 - French Mle 1917
105mm Tank Gun, M68 - UK L7A1


In fact, the only rifles fully developed inside the US Army Ordnance system were the M1 and M14, and the only machine gun, the M73 . . .
 

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Discussion Starter #166
Will guys after reading so many reports and seeing so many YouTube videos on how poorly the the M14 design is and thus so very inaccurate I am thinking of getting rid of them, just to look at these retched things is beginning to turn my stomach.

I can't believe I was about to build a couple more, thank god I read this thread, and it showed me the errors of my ways. I guess I am hard headed because I didn't pay attention to the last ten or twelve threads on the subject!

I do have a concern, the word is not getting to the right people, we need to reach out to those folks who are thinking about the quality of these dreadful M1a/M14 type rifles before its too late.

I don't know about the rest of you here but I am getting rid of these retched things.















Why should I have to worry about all this, I think I will just give these to my son and let them be his problem!

Yea, that's what I am going to do. GI2

XM25REN
Thats an amazing collection my friend!
 

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Discussion Starter #167
You know gun culture sits in limbo when Youtube bans AR15 vs M14 bashing videos... because of bullying and the hurt feelsies.
I saw that video the other day, my dad and I watched it. We ourselves are both avid AR15 fans and it was funny! It was satire at best and I loved it. Nothing he said made me dislike the AR15 or sit back and consider "maybe I bought the wrong rifle???". But finding out his video got deleted (most likely reported and taking down by avid AR fans) kinda speaks to the truth that people get very militant over their firearm choices. So much so that even comical bashing videos get flak and taken down. Just sad man.
 

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Discussion Starter #168
If it doesn't shoot sub-MOA out of the box then it's considered garbage from what I've read, seen or heard. The M1A falls into the garbage category according to these experts. Of course, these same people slap a scope or holo sight with a magnifier, IR flashlight, VFG, muzzle device and shoot a 3 round group at 100 yards with an AR and call it accurate. Ok I might be embellishing a bit but you get the idea. Put these same people behind a M1A with irons and they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

I'm considered a millennial (34) but I grew up shooting irons and appreciate the basic skills of marksmanship. The M1A is the ideal rifle for me. I don't need sub-MOA accuracy out of it and if I did, I'd buy a super-match and tweak it until it got there, cost be damned.

To each his own, but I'll say my generation and younger apply the video game mentality to real firearms.
I agree with what you say. But I'll add to it. Alot of young people want instant results out of the box on everything. The M1A/M14 is a learning rifle, at least it was for me I sat down and started shooting it until I learned to shoot it good and what ammo it shot best. Of course I myself kept improving how I held it and how I shot it. Alot of younger people don't have the patience and want instant results out of the gate.
 

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Discussion Starter #169
That's pretty much it. He wanted the Army to adopt something that simply wasn't even remotely ready to be put into production. Heck, I think it wasn't even a good working prototype at that stage of the game.

The man is a lover of all things AR and that is fine. However, his bias doesn't allow him to view history objectively. When viewing history objectively, one must put oneself in the time and disregard the "knowledge" gained after that time period. He fails to do that in a big way.
The AR10 didn't come into its own until at least the last decade. The M14 was ready to go when Uncle Sam needed a DMR and the AR10 was nowhere to be seen.
 

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I haven't read the full thread, but here is my take on things...

As time goes by, there are fewer and fewer people buying firearms with sentiment attachments to "older" firearms.

I am a younger guy. I have not served. I have 0 emotional attachments to any one make or type of firearm.

To me, and to MANY people. A firearm is a firearm is a firearm. And the year is currently 2020. And we are currently in America.

Vietnam in the 70s no longer is relevant to a very many gun owners.

We want guns that TODAY in 2020 in America stack up against their competition. That compare and compete on:

Price
Weight
Accuracy
Availability
Caliber support
Aftermarket support

Those are trends people are wanting.

Affordability. Things are getting cheaper. If it isn't getting more affordable, people aren't interested.

Weight, guns are getting lighter. If it isn't light, buyers don't want it.

Unless: Accuracy. If it's accurate, people will pay and will out up with heavy. What's accurate in 2020? 1.5 MOA? No. 1 MOA? No. 0.75 MOA? Getting there... But still no cigar. It's a cruel reality, but you can buy guns in 2020 and reasonably expect 0.5 MOA.

Calibers... Every other month some new hot trendy cartridge comes out. And unfortunately, if your platform doesn't support this year's wonder round, you won't be in favor with the internet crowd.

Platforms need to adapt and evolve over time. And improve. And get cheaper over time. Or they die. It's that simple.

Let's say I am in the market for a new gun. I want semi auto, 6mm Creedmoor, sub 1 MOA and don't want to spend $2000. What are my options?

There are a lot of people with extremely stringent firearms that will consider anything that doesn't meet their needs useless and not worth buying.

You either care enough to make a product to cater to those people, or you ignore them completely.

I think the future of the m14 platform will rely on evolving to meet at least some expanded market demands.

I like how there are some makers making more options. Things like integrated Pic rails on the reciever. I see a barrel makers has a .750" diameter at muzzle option. Let's see more of that.

Times are changing. Demands are changing. And anything not cutting edge is going to have a rough time on internet message boards.

P.S. With the Advent of new wonder rounds, there is A LOT of hate for .30 call non magnum projectiles these days. The internet wants high velocity high BC chamberings and will ruthlessly troll anyone still shooting .308.

These aren't my personal beliefs btw. Just my observations on the situation.

The m14 is falling behind expectations of a firearm in year 2020
 

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Please no one take offense to my post. It was purposefully brash to make the point of why people are increasingly critical of the platform.
 

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I Accuracy. If it's accurate, people will pay and will out up with heavy. What's accurate in 2020? 1.5 MOA? No. 1 MOA? No. 0.75 MOA? Getting there... But still no cigar. It's a cruel reality, but you can buy guns in 2020 and reasonably expect 0.5 MOA.
Internet gurus can talk about 0.5 MOA accuracy but actually repeatably shooting 0.5 MOA is another matter. When I say repeatably, I mean 10 shot groups, time after time. Not the best 3 shot group of the day.

To put all this in perspective, the X ring on an SR (200 yd.) target is 3" in diameter. That is 1.5 MOA. To shoot 0.5 MOA you need to shoot a group that is 1/3 the size of the X ring. Easier said that done - especially with a gas gun.
 

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It is a bit of an outlandish statement. Even great bolt guns will struggle to do .5 time after time in 10 rounds strings. Some rifles will never do it even once in a 5 round group.

There was some obvious exaggerating in my post I hope was noticed as being examples of what some of these people think.
 

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It is a bit of an outlandish statement. Even great bolt guns will struggle to do .5 time after time in 10 rounds strings. Some rifles will never do it even once in a 5 round group.

There was some obvious exaggerating in my post I hope was noticed as being examples of what some of these people think.
If these people expect that level of precision, they are out of touch with reality. I suspect that they might also expect to see an end to hunger.

As for M14 type rifles being in low demand, I arrived at Camp Perry last summer the day after Springfield Armory opened their concession on Commercial Row. They had hundreds of firearms for sale but I only saw four M1A's. All were the rifles with the wood stocks with adjustable check pieces. I think it is called the M21 Tactical. I believe that was a discontinued model. I would suggest that if there weren't more M1A's for sale, they were able to sell all they were manufacturing.
 

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Aint the AR15 a "Boomer" era gun? Boomers burned off millions of rounds of 5.56 long before GenerationX and Millennials were a twinkle in daddy's eye.
Knowing the History and understanding it is the best medicine against prejudices, like the keyboard heroes have.
 
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Discussion Starter #178
If these people expect that level of precision, they are out of touch with reality. I suspect that they might also expect to see an end to hunger.

As for M14 type rifles being in low demand, I arrived at Camp Perry last summer the day after Springfield Armory opened their concession on Commercial Row. They had hundreds of firearms for sale but I only saw four M1A's. All were the rifles with the wood stocks with adjustable check pieces. I think it is called the M21 Tactical. I believe that was a discontinued model. I would suggest that if there weren't more M1A's for sale, they were able to sell all they were manufacturing.
There are people that believe AR15s are capable of accuracy like that with any type of ammo. I've run an assortment of factory stuff through my DPMS Oracle. I've gotten 1 moa groups with 55 gr ammo but I've never gotten
factory stuff to group sub moa repeatedly. The only ammo I've gotten to do that in my rifle is handloads. But with handloads in my M1A I can get sub moa repeatedly with it as well.
 

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the mattel 16 killed more soldiers it is a glorified 22 ,the new larger caliber uppers wont work with full auto, at least not well more heat greater impact and climb but make the platform an ok hunter simiauto goverment took a bunch of m14s to the middle east you can reach out and touch someone way beyond what an ar can do
 

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In a word, no.

The only real hate I've seen for the M14 is centered around a near 15 year old old story written by a freelance gunwriter who keeps reselling the same old story every couple years to a new gunrag.

It is an older platform. It does have limitations compared to other platforms and due to lack of parts will soon not be feasible for the Army to maintain. However modern military sniping is looking for ways to reach past 1000 yards and the .300 Win Mag being fielded as the cartridge of choice for Army and Marine snipers, so the use the 7.62X51 chambered rifle in anything but a DMR role will soon be in the past.
 
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