Gus, Another Question
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#4 is merely a relief cut and the back edge of the trigger housing is not supposed to contact it.
I've seen commercial stocks where this angle was not right and or not back far enough that it made closing the triggerguard more difficult. People would confuse that with #6 being too far from the top of the stock. Then they would file down #6 to where there was no wood contacting the forward bedding surfaces of the trigger housing and they still couldn't get the trigger guard to lock down right.
Even if you can get the triggerguard to close properly and the rear of the triggerguard is binding ln #4, the triggerguard can/will pop loose during firing when there is too much tension there.
I've seen commercial stocks where this angle was not right and or not back far enough that it made closing the triggerguard more difficult. People would confuse that with #6 being too far from the top of the stock. Then they would file down #6 to where there was no wood contacting the forward bedding surfaces of the trigger housing and they still couldn't get the trigger guard to lock down right.
Even if you can get the triggerguard to close properly and the rear of the triggerguard is binding ln #4, the triggerguard can/will pop loose during firing when there is too much tension there.
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Gus
Thanks for the reply.
New commercial stocks are giving me fits. I've only really had issues with three Garands and they all have slimmed Boyds stocks.
These rifle were built with all inspec USGI parts and NOS USGI barrels.The accuracy just isnt as good as it should be, erratic
I have checked for Op Rod interference, sanded where it made contact , widened barrel channel.handguards have clearence
I know that tight lock up is good but can it be to tight? Can a trigger gaurd that takes three men and a boy to close have any effects on accuacy or POI ?
Thanks
Thanks for the reply.
New commercial stocks are giving me fits. I've only really had issues with three Garands and they all have slimmed Boyds stocks.
These rifle were built with all inspec USGI parts and NOS USGI barrels.The accuracy just isnt as good as it should be, erratic
I have checked for Op Rod interference, sanded where it made contact , widened barrel channel.handguards have clearence
I know that tight lock up is good but can it be to tight? Can a trigger gaurd that takes three men and a boy to close have any effects on accuacy or POI ?
Thanks
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There are a few issues I'm finding with CMP and to a lesser extent Boyd's stocks lately, only because I'm not using so many Boyd's stocks as I used to use. The CMP sets are tighter in important areas of accuracy and you almost have to do some small amount of glass bedding to get Boyd's stocks tight.
The first is many of the receivers rub HARD on top the stock behind the receiver legs and usually more on the left side than the right side. The wood should contact from the end of the receiver heel going forward about 1 to 1 1/8" or so and then should not touch all the way to the rear end of the receiver legs. Then from the receiver legs forward, there should be contact of the rest of the receiver on top of the stock. That open space allows the receiver to be slightly bent when the trigger guard is locked down between the forward part of the receiver and the heel of the receiver. This is critical not only to accuracy, but if the receiver contacts too hard between these points, it will also give function problems.
The fix is to lay a file flat across both sides of the stock, drawfile it and put more pressure on the side where the receiver contacts more as you drawfile. You do not need nor do you want to hog out a bunch of wood, though. You file and check JUST so you can see light between the bottom of the receiver top and the top of the stock. You don't want even so much as 1/16" of wood clearance - just enough you can see light between the two - 1/32" or less is great.
The next common problems relate to the barrel channel area of the stock. A lot of these stocks will contact in the front of the channel just behind the stock ferrule and going back a couple inches or so. The contact point/s are the inside corners of the top of the barrel channel. Some Boyd's stocks keep the barrel up so the stock can't be pushed upward against the barrel and spring back down. With no rear handguard in place and the receiver locked into the stock with the trigger housing, you should be able to hold the barrel and push up on the front of the stock until it is stopped by the lower band contacting the bottom of the stock ferrule. When you release the tension, it should spring back down. The barrel also should not contact either side of the front of the stock when you do that. On a lot of stocks, I have to file a little clearance on both sides of the barrel channel so the wood doesn't contact the barrel.
Some Boyd's stocks have the wood that supports the stock ferrule too high. The only way to fix that is to carefully file the top of those wood supports so the ferrule can be lowered, but you have to glass it in place or it won't stay there. That makes the stock illegal for John Garand Matches.
Many rear handguards and/or the top of the stock has to be filed so the rear handguard (or even the handguard band) does not contact the top of the stock. You want about 1/16" of clearance between the top of the stock and the bottom of the rear handguard WHEN YOU PUSH UPWARDS on the front of the stock while holding the barrel in place. IOW, during recoil the bottom of the rear handguard should not touch the top of the stock.
I can't tell you how much I've had to clear inside the barrel channel for the side or bottom of the op rod or the bottom of the op rod handle so it doesn't rub during recoil. Even a little rubbing will cause flyers. I put a thin layer of grease all over an op rod and put it in the barreled receiver. Then I lock the receiver and trigger housing in the stock. While I hold the front of the stock up against the barrel, I move the op rod back and forth to allow it to leave a grease mark on the wood - if it is contacting. I clear the wood just enough so there are no grease marks left.
I've also found a common problem on both Boyd's and CMP stocks is the relief cut for the tail of the clip latch is too far back by about 1/16 to 1/18 inch. If the tail of the clip latch bears against the wood, it will cause flyers AND it can also cause function problems when the clip latch bears against the wood during recoil. The fix is to open the clearance cut just a bit forward so the tail doesn't hit during recoil.
I clear ALL M14 and M1 stocks so the trigger doesn't contact the wood between the two small pads on the rear of the trigger housing.
As to having to have two men and a boy to close a trigger guard. Grin. You would be surprised how tight we glass bedded M14 and M1 triggerguards for NM rifles. What I do when Boyd's or CMP stocks are that tight is to fit the most worn triggerguard I can find to the stock. You have to put grease or lamp black or something on both of the long trigger housing pads where they ride on Area 6 on both sides of the stock. Where it bears the hardest, you carefully file a little while keeping the original angle that matches the trigger housing. You go back and forth from side to side with only a few file strokes until you have fairly balanced contact on both sides of the stock and you can close the well worn triggerguard without getting a hernia, but pretty firm. That way as the stock wears in/indents from a lot of rounds fired, you can put a less worn trigger guard in the housing to keep the stock tight. What is fabulous about standard stocks being overly tight there is we can use worn triggerguards that are otherwise too worn for G.I. stocks, just like we glass bed a stock for a worn triggerguard on rifles we are allowed to glass bed.
The first is many of the receivers rub HARD on top the stock behind the receiver legs and usually more on the left side than the right side. The wood should contact from the end of the receiver heel going forward about 1 to 1 1/8" or so and then should not touch all the way to the rear end of the receiver legs. Then from the receiver legs forward, there should be contact of the rest of the receiver on top of the stock. That open space allows the receiver to be slightly bent when the trigger guard is locked down between the forward part of the receiver and the heel of the receiver. This is critical not only to accuracy, but if the receiver contacts too hard between these points, it will also give function problems.
The fix is to lay a file flat across both sides of the stock, drawfile it and put more pressure on the side where the receiver contacts more as you drawfile. You do not need nor do you want to hog out a bunch of wood, though. You file and check JUST so you can see light between the bottom of the receiver top and the top of the stock. You don't want even so much as 1/16" of wood clearance - just enough you can see light between the two - 1/32" or less is great.
The next common problems relate to the barrel channel area of the stock. A lot of these stocks will contact in the front of the channel just behind the stock ferrule and going back a couple inches or so. The contact point/s are the inside corners of the top of the barrel channel. Some Boyd's stocks keep the barrel up so the stock can't be pushed upward against the barrel and spring back down. With no rear handguard in place and the receiver locked into the stock with the trigger housing, you should be able to hold the barrel and push up on the front of the stock until it is stopped by the lower band contacting the bottom of the stock ferrule. When you release the tension, it should spring back down. The barrel also should not contact either side of the front of the stock when you do that. On a lot of stocks, I have to file a little clearance on both sides of the barrel channel so the wood doesn't contact the barrel.
Some Boyd's stocks have the wood that supports the stock ferrule too high. The only way to fix that is to carefully file the top of those wood supports so the ferrule can be lowered, but you have to glass it in place or it won't stay there. That makes the stock illegal for John Garand Matches.
Many rear handguards and/or the top of the stock has to be filed so the rear handguard (or even the handguard band) does not contact the top of the stock. You want about 1/16" of clearance between the top of the stock and the bottom of the rear handguard WHEN YOU PUSH UPWARDS on the front of the stock while holding the barrel in place. IOW, during recoil the bottom of the rear handguard should not touch the top of the stock.
I can't tell you how much I've had to clear inside the barrel channel for the side or bottom of the op rod or the bottom of the op rod handle so it doesn't rub during recoil. Even a little rubbing will cause flyers. I put a thin layer of grease all over an op rod and put it in the barreled receiver. Then I lock the receiver and trigger housing in the stock. While I hold the front of the stock up against the barrel, I move the op rod back and forth to allow it to leave a grease mark on the wood - if it is contacting. I clear the wood just enough so there are no grease marks left.
I've also found a common problem on both Boyd's and CMP stocks is the relief cut for the tail of the clip latch is too far back by about 1/16 to 1/18 inch. If the tail of the clip latch bears against the wood, it will cause flyers AND it can also cause function problems when the clip latch bears against the wood during recoil. The fix is to open the clearance cut just a bit forward so the tail doesn't hit during recoil.
I clear ALL M14 and M1 stocks so the trigger doesn't contact the wood between the two small pads on the rear of the trigger housing.
As to having to have two men and a boy to close a trigger guard. Grin. You would be surprised how tight we glass bedded M14 and M1 triggerguards for NM rifles. What I do when Boyd's or CMP stocks are that tight is to fit the most worn triggerguard I can find to the stock. You have to put grease or lamp black or something on both of the long trigger housing pads where they ride on Area 6 on both sides of the stock. Where it bears the hardest, you carefully file a little while keeping the original angle that matches the trigger housing. You go back and forth from side to side with only a few file strokes until you have fairly balanced contact on both sides of the stock and you can close the well worn triggerguard without getting a hernia, but pretty firm. That way as the stock wears in/indents from a lot of rounds fired, you can put a less worn trigger guard in the housing to keep the stock tight. What is fabulous about standard stocks being overly tight there is we can use worn triggerguards that are otherwise too worn for G.I. stocks, just like we glass bed a stock for a worn triggerguard on rifles we are allowed to glass bed.
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NOT counting the time I have had to use glass bedding to fix a Boyd's stock, I usually figure 1 - 1/2 hours as an average to fix the common problems in a Boyd's stock. But you have to remember I have done this for a long time and know where to fix it and how best to do it quickly. Some folks can spend up to four or more hours doing all these adjustments.
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Gus
The stocks I used are Dupage/boyds. I removed wood for the barrel channel and Op Rod.
I'll check the other areas you mentioned.
On one rifle with the Dupage/Boyds the first enbloc will throw rds on a 8 inch group, following rds after things heat up are a 3 1/2 - 4 inch group. This one is giving me fits.
Other two rifles with Dupage/Boyds just arent as tight as groups as they should be. All have NOS USGI Barrels and all parts in spec.
If I cant figure them out I'm done with commercial stocks or will have to let someone else look at them.
I'm the kind of guy that likes to do it myself but I'm at a loss.
Thanks for the tips. much appreciated
The stocks I used are Dupage/boyds. I removed wood for the barrel channel and Op Rod.
I'll check the other areas you mentioned.
On one rifle with the Dupage/Boyds the first enbloc will throw rds on a 8 inch group, following rds after things heat up are a 3 1/2 - 4 inch group. This one is giving me fits.
Other two rifles with Dupage/Boyds just arent as tight as groups as they should be. All have NOS USGI Barrels and all parts in spec.
If I cant figure them out I'm done with commercial stocks or will have to let someone else look at them.
I'm the kind of guy that likes to do it myself but I'm at a loss.
Thanks for the tips. much appreciated
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7,066 Posts
I'd only bet on that rifle, the stock is contacting the receiver behind the receiver legs where I wrote about clearing it there.
You may also not have any or much downward pressure on the front of the stock.
OH, forgot to add, the front "plate" of the stock ferrule can not be rubbing on the lower band. Sometimes you have to cut the wood support for the ferrule so it goes a tiny bit further back. There has to be at least light between them as well.
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I did make sure there was plenty of clearance between the lower band and stock ferrule on all of the stocks.
How do you make a stock have more downward pressure?
I'll check the stock fit on the receiver legs.
I really apprecite the help, I put these rifles together hoping for exceptional shooters and so far the are less than satisfactory
Many thanks
How do you make a stock have more downward pressure?
I'll check the stock fit on the receiver legs.
I really apprecite the help, I put these rifles together hoping for exceptional shooters and so far the are less than satisfactory
Many thanks
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7,066 Posts
"How do you make a stock have more downward pressure?"
The downward pressure up front in a G.I. stock comes from the relationship of the stock ferrule to the top of the stock where the receiver locks down. The barrel is just ever so slightly bent downwards when the barreled receiver is locked down. You can increase the pressure by moving the stock ferrule down a bit and bedding it there or glass bedding the receiver, but both methods require modifications to the stock that are not legal for a CMP or John Garand Match Rifle.
Now I don't want you to think that original G.I. stocks were immune from not having good downward pressure on the front of the stocks and the problem is only confined to commercial stocks. Even when stocks were cut perfectly to spec.; the wood can warp, twist, dry out or swell up with moisture so you don't get good downward pressure.
Something else has occured to me, I have assumed you checked the fit of the stock to the receiver by the fact you used the photograph chart above. Maybe you haven't.
Take the barreled receiver and turn it upside down on your bench. Put the stock down in place over it. Do not put the trigger guard in place. Now grab the gas cylinder with your left hand and hold it steady. Now with your right hand - try to pull back and push forward on the stock. If there is movement when you do this, the stock is not holding the receiver tight fore and aft. If that is going on, you will have to shim or glass bed the stock because it would allow the receiver to bounce around in the stock during recoil.
The downward pressure up front in a G.I. stock comes from the relationship of the stock ferrule to the top of the stock where the receiver locks down. The barrel is just ever so slightly bent downwards when the barreled receiver is locked down. You can increase the pressure by moving the stock ferrule down a bit and bedding it there or glass bedding the receiver, but both methods require modifications to the stock that are not legal for a CMP or John Garand Match Rifle.
Now I don't want you to think that original G.I. stocks were immune from not having good downward pressure on the front of the stocks and the problem is only confined to commercial stocks. Even when stocks were cut perfectly to spec.; the wood can warp, twist, dry out or swell up with moisture so you don't get good downward pressure.
Something else has occured to me, I have assumed you checked the fit of the stock to the receiver by the fact you used the photograph chart above. Maybe you haven't.
Take the barreled receiver and turn it upside down on your bench. Put the stock down in place over it. Do not put the trigger guard in place. Now grab the gas cylinder with your left hand and hold it steady. Now with your right hand - try to pull back and push forward on the stock. If there is movement when you do this, the stock is not holding the receiver tight fore and aft. If that is going on, you will have to shim or glass bed the stock because it would allow the receiver to bounce around in the stock during recoil.
I had thought all those "Boyd's bugs" were supposed to be out of the stocks Boyd's is cutting for Dupage and in turn CMP. Stocks that require whittling or glass bedding to fit right are all over the place. I'll tell ya, if you can get a JC Garand Match-legal M1 from CMP (or former DCM rifle) that has sound USGI wood with a perfect metal-to-stock fit and lock-up, never let that one go.
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No, not all the Boyd's bugs are out of Dupage stocks, though the important thing is the receiver legs are usually good and tight and that's not the case in the run of the mill Boyd's stocks.
Oh, one other thing. You usually have to clear a CMP or Boyd's stock so the firing pin tail does not ding up the inside of the stock. Not a huge deal, but it still most usually has to be done.
Yeah, thanks, I just caught wind of that firing pin tail thing. Only reason I locked onto the Dupage issue is I've got in build right now what'll be a .308 Garand (barrel still to be located). It was my plan to nest it in one of the new GI-shape Dupagers.
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I don't know if Dupage is selling the G.I. shape stocks other than through CMP. That doesn't mean they aren't, but I hadn't heard that. If you are building a .308, then you don't have to worry about CMP rules as they aren't legal for John Garand matches.
I just noticed that Brownells seems to have discontinued Wilson barrels. Sorry to see that. I have used dozens of Wilson barrels for .308 conversions and they were great.
Gus, check www.dupagetrading.com, click Rifle Stocks at the top, on that $110 stock set. It'll work fine if it's as described. It looks right, not fat & proud all over. But if it's loose as a goose I'll hog it out and glass it. No, this .308 will be strictly a general purpose gas gun, not JCG qualifying. I've got a great .30-06 JCG rifle that came from DCM when a slick 1951 RRAD rebuild with a new SA barrel was $94.30.
You raise an interesting point on the barrels. My plan was to wrap and box up the receiver, bolt, gas cyl, and op rod to Champion's Choice and let Gene Barnett barrel it. But when I called Chuck Pearson to set it up he said CC doesn't have any more .308 barrels for Garands. Small blankety-blank world. I'll find a good barrel. I don't want a heavy Krieger, however, or a shot-out SA '65-'67 7.62 NATO take-off at $400+ on Gun Broker. Guess I need to look into Criterion. Thanks for your help.
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Just got done checking both websites. Of course, I just HAD to check on Dupage's M1 parts and noticed they have milled stock ferrules in stock. I love those things. Might have to order one or two.
Just checked Krieger's website and they still have the G.I. contour barrels in .308 on special. Man, you can not beat their barrels! Even when Wilson still stocked their standard .308 Garand barrels they weren't a whole lot cheaper than that and they were not hand cut rifled and hand lapped.
I'm not in the market for a .308 Garand barrel right now, but if I were, I would think very hard about getting one of those from Krieger.
Just checked Krieger's website and they still have the G.I. contour barrels in .308 on special. Man, you can not beat their barrels! Even when Wilson still stocked their standard .308 Garand barrels they weren't a whole lot cheaper than that and they were not hand cut rifled and hand lapped.
I'm not in the market for a .308 Garand barrel right now, but if I were, I would think very hard about getting one of those from Krieger.
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I love Krieger barrels! Even though I don't have a .308 garand I know I am going to kick myself in the butt one day for not getting one while they are on special. Last time I did that I missed out on the M14 heavy CM 18.5 inch barrels. They were selling for $300 short chambered. I finally got two but I had to host the group buy and plead my case to the production manager. He happened to have four blanks he pulled off the production line 9 years ago for his personal use one day. One I installed on an m25 the other is probably the only one in existance not mounted on a receiver. I flat out got lucky! They are outstanding barrels! One of these days I would like to shoot a rifle with a Wilson or criterion just do compare the differences.
I did finally find the Krieger standard contour CM .308 Garand bbl. Appears to be $360 short-chambered (save $40 against regular price). I can get the right kind of help w/ the right tools close by to install and time if I go w/ Krieger's. Dad-gum, that would have covered the whole meal + dessert with CC/Barnett's barrel. Thanks for the tip, both of you!
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Years ago I asked Gene about putting out a G.I. contour NM Garand barrel and he didn't want to do it as it would cost so much more because of the added machine time he would have had to do to whittle the NM blank down that far.
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