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i sent a top end to jamesriver armory to have a rifle put together with their new m-21 receiver.I had received a good deal on the receiver so i sent them a springfield armory match barrel that i had purchased from CROC,SGUNSHOP. CROCS assurred me over the phone what an accurate barrel this was but the criginal owner wanted a shorter weapon.BUT there was NOTHING wrong with the barrel it was good.t.e& m.e. showed it had not been shot much.IMAGINE my surprise when buck of james river called & told me the barrel had a deep chamber & i would not be happy with it .I tried to contact CROC,S but he ignored me until i used gunbroker,s site .he claimed the barrel was alright when it left him &"SOMEONE" must have damaged it .In his 3rd "MEA CULPA" e-mail to me he admitted it gauged 1.635.everyone wants 1.632.I asked him to take it back as he swore it was a fine barrel.He refused .do not let this fellow build you a rifle you will be sorry!for the record i own 8 m14.s & have dealt with several gunsmiths.YOU have been WARNED!
 

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In an M14, 1.635" would be good head space for 7.62 NATO ONLY shooting or for an all around rifle that will be used in the field, with many different types of ammo..

For any M14 rifle dedicated to range/target use only I personally like 1.632" as a MINIMUM ....
BUT,
A chamber this short in an M14 must be kept scrupulously clean, and used primarily with .308 ammo. In these shorter chambers, Reloads must be kept carefully and precisely sized. In my personal testing, all the CLEAN 7.62 NATO ammo I tried in this dimension chamber will usually drop right in and drop out. But add a little sand or carbon, and BAD CHIT can happen.

Based on LOTS of experience building M14 type target rifles, and shooting and working on too many more Chinese clones with MASSIVE headspace, IMHO, a short chamber is MUCH more dangerous than a long chamber [ even .015" longer ]. You rarely get a .308 FACTORY NEW cartridge blowing out even with such massive headspace, and these blowouts are MUCH milder than an Out Of Battery explosion, which can be more likely with tight chambers, dirty ammo, and reloads.

Different strokes for different folks .. if you are building a TARGET/RANGE only M14, then 1.632" is the ideal. But otherwise, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with 1.635".

YPMMV
and obviously your personal opinion matters more to you than my words, but those .003" might not be such a big deal. The M21 WAS chambered for 7.62 NATO, and I suspect the chambers would be close to that 1.635" number in the real thing.

Gus would know for sure.
[;)
LAZ 1
 

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I would call Buck at James River and ask him what the chamber dimensions are and if it is 1.635" if in his learned opinion this is usable or not. Contact two or three on the known honest and knowledgeable gunsmiths on this forum and see what their opinions are. If you get a consensus that is okay, keep it and shoot it. If they say nope, bad news; send Croc copies of their opinions wit a copy of his email admitting he sold you an out of spec (and potentially dangerous) barrel and demand a full refund. If he balks, inform him you will legal action against him for fraud, I.e.; knowingly selling you a defective and dangerous item.
Then buy another barrel from a honest vendor.
 

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When you buy a Used Barrel you are gambling that the seller is Honest and competent enough to know what they are talking about. Perhaps the one that sold the Barrel to them Lied. Unless you absolutely have to have an ex Military Barrel I would go for one of the excellent Commercial M14 Barrels available today. They would probably outshoot any vintage GI BBL anyway.
 

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How are you supposed to know the headsapace unless you have a specific receiver/bolt combo for reference???? It may have been 1.635" with one and 1.640" or 1.628" with another.

You may know what the HS is with one setup, but that does not mean it will be the same with another receiver/bolt combo.

Best to buy new, non-chrome lined barrels unless you have a pile of bolts to use to achieve proper HS. Perhaps this barrel does have a deep chamber, could've been 1.632" on the original rifle. I seriously doubt SAI delivers rifles with HS of 1.635". I've owned a dozen or more and all were 1.631-1.632". This particular barrel could've easily HS'd to that spec on its original receiver.
 

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How are you supposed to know the headsapace unless you have a specific receiver/bolt combo for reference???? It may have been 1.635" with one and 1.640" or 1.628" with another.

You may know what the HS is with one setup, but that does not mean it will be the same with another receiver/bolt combo.

Best to buy new, non-chrome lined barrels unless you have a pile of bolts to use to achieve proper HS. Perhaps this barrel does have a deep chamber, could've been 1.632" on the original rifle. I seriously doubt SAI delivers rifles with HS of 1.635". I've owned a dozen or more and all were 1.631-1.632". This particular barrel could've easily HS'd to that spec on its original receiver.
This.

Also this is not the end of the world. 1635 is fine. If you want tighter get a short chambered criterion barrel from LRB or Fulton and have it fitted. You have learned your lesson.
 

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Maybe he did. Maybe he cut the chamber a bit fat, took it off and sold it. Who knows??? One can conjecture all day, but you'll never have proof.

But it is meaningless to say that a 1.635" HS is going to be a HS of 1.635" on another receiver/bolt combo. It doesn't work that way. There are tolerances in all combos and having built 50 or so with my own hands, I can tell you it doesn't work that way. You best have a pile of bolts if you want to fit takeoffs.

Same manufacturers will tend to come in around the same. SO it may not help to have a bunch of JRA bolts. Perhaps a longer TRW bolt would fit the bill and reduce his HS. But alas he doesn't have a few NIW TRW bolts to try.

Best bet is to buy a new Criterion and spend the extra $100 for a simple, hassle free build. He'll spend much more in shipping, build costs and headache to make up the savings on the SAI takeoff.
 

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Ya we get it your point.

But if the guy at Jr a says he can't head space it, I'd take that to mean he tried his best.

If he said it's cut to long , that tells me the best he could do is the measurement given.

We'd have to see a statement from the builder of course, but I doubt he slapped a single bolt in said "oops it's too long " and called the op.

If I were the OP I'd inquire about that.

If the jra builder indeed did only try a couple or a single bolt it's possible another gunsmith with a pile of mixed bolts can get the thing to headspace.

Or maybe sell it to abuilder to recoup a portion of loss.
 

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I wonder if this is one of those threads where we pour out a ton of solutions and the OP never looks at it.
 

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OP was probably upset and needed to vent his frustration. No big deal, we know the pain of being disappointed with our rifles. This can still be an informative thread for others and the need to avoid takeoffs unless you have a pile of spares.

The HS measurement of 1.635" on a match barrel should have been stated up front. But he is not customer friendly. If he was he would have accepted the barrel back. Why risk your reputation for $200??? Because his reputation is squat in this community already and he doesn't give a $hit. He gets his and it doesn't matter who gets the short end. Like we didn't know that already. He's a slick talking liar at minimum and possibly a thief. Folks like us tolerate neither. So just avoid the entire lot.

Stick with JY Wolfe, JRA, LRB, WCS and FA. We know who has our backs in this community and these folks are above reproach. If you aren't happy, they aren't happy. Simple enough. Some of us found this stuff out the hard way. Don't be a knuckle head like me.
 

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Well I took a chance and bought a used sai scout barrel from a member here. For the change to try a different size barrel it was worth the really modest price. My plan is a scout type in my hybrid gi glass/ebr graft stock. If I like it, but a scout. If I don't, screw the full size tube back on and call it a day. There is always a chance of things not working right when buying these used. That's why they don't carry a hefty price tag used. Hell, criterion are not that pricey new anyways.
 

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Yup they are not always plug and play like our ar type rifles. It's a risk but not always a bad one. If the price is right, it can pay off if it works out. More often than not if you're not after match winning accuracy, you'll be fine. If you want to try on a different size before plunking down the big$ on a heavy Krieger only to find out you don't like the heft or balance. I hope this makes sense. Don't ever pay a high price on a take off.
 

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OP was probably upset and needed to vent his frustration. No big deal, we know the pain of being disappointed with our rifles. This can still be an informative thread for others and the need to avoid takeoffs unless you have a pile of spares.

The HS measurement of 1.635" on a match barrel should have been stated up front. But he is not customer friendly. If he was he would have accepted the barrel back. Why risk your reputation for $200??? Because his reputation is squat in this community already and he doesn't give a $hit. He gets his and it doesn't matter who gets the short end. Like we didn't know that already. He's a slick talking liar at minimum and possibly a thief. Folks like us tolerate neither. So just avoid the entire lot.

Stick with JY Wolfe, JRA, LRB, WCS and FA. We know who has our backs in this community and these folks are above reproach. If you aren't happy, they aren't happy. Simple enough. Some of us found this stuff out the hard way. Don't be a knuckle head like me.
I'm extremely wary of buying take off barrels these days especially GI barrels and a double especially if it online as I've learned the hard way that sellers either don't know how to tell if a barrel is in good condition or just doesn't really care ad that to the issue of GI barrels being over 50 years old so much of them have seen a ton of use and have chrome flaking. I pretty much stopped buying barrels online unless I know and trust the person selling it. As a matter of fact the last GI barrel I bought online was from you and it was a great barrel. I trust your character and more importantly your experience and judgment when judging the condition of such a part. One would think croc would have the knowledge to know what kind of condition a barrel is in. However we all do make mistakes. I once sold a really nice trigger trw trigger group the previous owner did a trigger job on it and somehow it completely slipped by me and I didn't notice it. When the buyer contacted me and told me it had a trigger job done and he wanted his money back I almost didn't believe him but told him to send it back and I'd refund him. Sure enough he was right and I sent him a refund. Mistakes happen and I think some of these guys and in this particular case croc trusts their own judgment a little to much and refuse to accept that he might have over looked a condition issue and either cause his pride is leading him to think the OP is full of crap and doesn't want to refund him or like you said just doesn't really give a &[email protected]& cause his reputation is already so bad he doesn't have much to lose by telling a customer to kiss off. I certainly don't understand how in this case a relatively large (either perceived by the amount of listings he has or not) seller won't refund this poor guy who didn't get what he was expecting. Guys like you and me don't have business in this game where our reputation is the difference between eating or not but we still stand behind the stuff we sell. Refunding that guy for the trw trigger group I sold him put me in a tight spot financially but in my opinion it was something I had to do cause the item wasn't represented correctly. It's not like refunding the op for the barrel is gonna take food off of crocs plate and even if it did he has no excuse not to refund him. One of these days people will learn who not to send their money to
 

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There are way to many honest and knowledgeable builders/ parts suppliers for the M14 to take the risk of doing business with a hack, liar, or used car salesman type of people.
Lessons learned the hard way are where much wisdom is learned. It is not a total loss if it does not work out for you with the barrel, but I hope it does work out for you to your satisfaction.

I just purchased a SAI take-off barrel in excellent condition, looks great but I will not know if I did good or not until I go to build it. I knew that going in, but at $65 and from a trustworthy person, I considered it a risk worth taking. It gauges 1/1 if I recall correctly, so it does show promise. The bore is very nice too. The only reason I took this risk is because I trust the seller, and if anything he understated the condition.
 
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