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In my mind the problem stems from the fallout from The War of Northern Aggression. .
Your right RAMMAC the racist past of gun control laws need to be addressed. In the south after the War of Northern Aggression gun control laws were used to keep arms out of the hands of newly freed slaves. The purpose of which was to keep them unarmed and defenseless.

Up North in the early 20th Century, laws like the Sullivian Act (pasted in 1911) were passed to keep weapons out of the hands of newly arriving immigrants. I think the 2nd Amendment supporters don't beat this drum loud enough and long enough.

Gun Control has a very Racist past.
 

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Ah. Except here is the thing. Open carry wasn't as prominent in the past as it is now. Most of the cities that we think of from the past in the "wild west" such as dodge, tombstone, and countless others banned the open carry of firearms. There were signs requiring visitors to check their weapons in with the sheriff or at the hotel desk. Hell, Texas as a state has banned open carry of firearms from even before statehood. Just saying. ...
I don't believe that, not for one second. Do you have any evidence?

Those cities that did were infamous for it because it was highly unusual.

And Wyatt Earp was a horsethief a-hole LEO. He had no right to disarm his town anymore than a modern-day LEO does.
 

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The problem is that we have a difference of opinion between the city dwellers and the rural people. City dwellers are used to being taken care of by somebody and the rural people take care of themselves. If you have been brain washed in to thinking that somebody will fix your problems then you tend to accept that nobody has a right to take care of themselves.

In my mind the problem stems from the fallout from The War of Northern Aggression. State's rights have virtually disappeared since then and the result is that people think that the rules of conduct in New York or Chicago should be the same as the rules in Sherwin Kansas or Gila Bend Arizona; large cities require a whole different set of rules compared to small cities and that's why states used to have the ultimate power within our government...too bad that is no longer true.
The flip side of this "alternative history" of course is that the people in *some* areas seem to believe (erroneously) that they live in their own private Idaho if you will. As you note at the end - your "concept" of the world is long dead and gone and has not existed for over 150 years - hence my post. The world - and the country - have changed.

Ah. Except here is the thing. Open carry wasn't as prominent in the past as it is now. Most of the cities that we think of from the past in the "wild west" such as dodge, tombstone, and countless others banned the open carry of firearms. There were signs requiring visitors to check their weapons in with the sheriff or at the hotel desk. Hell, Texas as a state has banned open carry of firearms from even before statehood. Just saying.

While you might frown upon protesting and demonstrations...

The tide is turning. People are starting to realise gun laws only affect those who abide by them.

People engaged in illegal activities such as drug trafficking and robbery aren't going to say "You know what? I won't saw the butt off of that shotgun, 'cause it'll make it an NFA item, and I'll have to pay that stupid tax"... No. He's going to do it anyway, he'll tuck it under his coat and Knock off a 7-11 or kill a rival drug dealer with it.

The guy legally walking down the street with an AR 15 SBR slung across his back? He's not the problem.

Here's another tidbit for you. Outside of major cities like Chicago and New York, firearms related crimes are at an all time low. Seriously. Chicago and New York have some of the strictest laws in effect and it hasn't stemmed the tide of inner city violence.
Crimes "rates" are tied to the population - which happens to be increasing. As such - as long as the actual amount of crime does not increase significantly - the subsequent increase in population will serve to "dilute" the statistics thus showing a negative growth rate. That does not mean the actual number of crimes is necessarily "down" - merely that the amount of people it is averaged against is increasing. Just something everyone should be aware of. As to the rest - while true it has nothing to do with open carry. Public safety laws are based upon actual and *perceived* public concern. As I noted before the country has a lot more people in it than 100 years ago. This means the likelihood of "conflict" and crime increases as more people come into contact. Since this is widely reported when it happens it has the effect of impacting public opinion. While polls show that most American currently support the *concept* of gun ownership - the majority equally supports some restrictions. While the subject of open carry may be popular among *some* gun owners - it must be remembered that - as noted - gun owners are a minority in the US being outnumbered by around 2:1. This means your "growing support" among a minority of a minority within the country. What many gun owners have long failed to understand is that to "appeal" to gun owners is nothing more than preaching to the choir and serves no real purpose. Gun owners need to rally non-gun owners to their side - rather than pissing them and legitimate businesses off by intentional antagonism which does more harm than good and plays right into the hands of the anti-gun media. Such "in your face" tactics didn't work very well for Occupy Wallstreet as I recall - where are they today?? USA2
 

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... as long as your actions don't interfere with my rights then you are free to carry on, but when your actions lead to a violation of my rights then you need to stop...

A right is a right, it's an absolute, yes in a society we have to make rules that control the actions of others, even rules that limit our rights to some degree, but as long as that right doesn't cause material damage nobody should be able to limit it. So ask yourselves, does open-carrying a rifle cause any physical damage? If the answer is no then nobody has a right to limit the right to do so.
(bold above)- Smartest thing written so far.

For the last time, there are no such things as rights. A right is a legal claim. We can prove you have life because you are breathing, but you cannot prove you have a legal claim to be alive. BTW, you can't own property either and you must fight for any liberty you think is due you. if you have ever been arrested and start yelling about your rights, the cops will laugh, tell you to shut up and ask you what rights, then tell you that "you don't have any rights."

..Wanna be bad a$$es that look like the guys we used to stick in lockers in high school. Not because they were dorks but because they could not comprehend norms.

... Open carry makes you look like a lunatic.
I knew it. You are one of those type guys, like the type that caused school massacres from the bullied boys that had enough.

My state recently passed what I as a cop had always known we already, had and that is open carry in our state. The bill just made it clear and laid down a few rules. Even though I'm retired now, when I see people walking around armed in a public place, I wonder about their motivation and just whom it is they're trying to impresss? Because they're certainly not impressing me for doing something that I've always done and that is to carry my pistol out in the open on my gun belt. I as a retired cop could open carry if wanted to but it's totally counter productive to even the most basic of good street survival practices.

I've had people tell me on routine traffic stops that they have a pistol with them in their vehicles. I thank them for the courtesy but it's not required in our state, then I'd smile and remind them I have one too and mine's a lot closer, right here on my gun belt.

Many of these open carry dweebs look like they were taken right out of some real life "the people of Wal-Mart" emails that we all get from time to time. I can't help but wonder what kind of point is it that they are trying to make? I want to tell them "hey fool we already have open carry! Hide your weapon and surprise those who would do harm to you.

Because if I was a bad guy... I could take them out with no trouble at all.
I'd just walk up behind them in the store and with one single shot to the back of the head and they're history.

They'd be grave yard dead and I'd own their gun and everything else they had with them. I could then get on with carrying out my nefarious intentions, without worrying about them doing anything, but laying there and rapidly cooling off to roof temperature.

The same goes for any of you who thinks it's a bright idea to walk around showing the whole world what should be your hole card. That is if you plan on continuing playing the hand you were dealt in this game of life. This thing isn't about exercising rights. It's all about surviving to see the sun come up tomorrow in a worse case. Believe you me, I've seen first hand the result of lots of other people's worst nightmares come to life.

7th
and thank God you are retired. sheesh, streets must be much safer now.

You mean like elitist magical cops?

Or do bad things not happen to people that don't open carry?
Hear, Hear !

The problems coming from open carry are that people can see the weapon, meaning people can be offended, the problem cops can better profile you, the troublemakers can bug the local PD about you, and the weapon is more accessible to others because it is in the open.
However, only the last thing is the real issue. The rest are problems with other people. Given the estimates of people who own weapons, I’d say that (as wise as this likely isn’t given the poor state of open carry laws in certain states) that if we all (100 +/- million of us) walked around with a pistol openly displayed on our hips and/or a rifle on our backs, after a while the idiots would have to either deal or buy stores empty of depends. Of course nobody can organize us enough for even 10 million of us to do that, but such an action would put the realities in their faces.
The benefit to individuals openly carrying weapons is that they are arguably easier for the user and faster to draw and employ. However, done daily and by many (on the order of 5-10 percent of the population in the very least, preferably 20 or so) it becomes a tool to show others that we can have weapons out and about with few (someone’s gonna screw it up) incidents.

So I guess it falls logically as follows: either we

1) Simply carry as we do and go through the normal fight and fight amongst ourselves as we always will, just letting everything go along is it may and gaining and losing ground with the additional nonsense to come in the form of public killing sprees and injury by accidental discharges.

2) Try and truly organize and kick some misconception ass

Ok, I’ll hop off the bar stool and turn off the TV blaring a clip of the flag blowing in the wind with inspiring wind instruments now. Thanks M14 peeps.
Offended ? Who cares ? Go to youtube and look at any of the hundreds of videos about open carry and the first thing the cops say is " We got some calls from nervous people." So what ! That is their problem, take a pill, get over it. It makes me nervous and want to kill people when they play their stupid boom boxes so loud they rattle my windows, but you don't see me calling the cops. They wouldn't do anything about it anyway. Too bad they don't treat boom boxers the way they do open carriers. "We got some calls from nervous citizens about your booming so we need to search you, confiscate your boom box, and take you to jail."
 

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Offended ? Who cares ? Go to youtube and look at any of the hundreds of videos about open carry and the first thing the cops say is " We got some calls from nervous people." So what ! That is their problem, take a pill, get over it.
The problem with being dismissive about the lay persons uneasiness to open carry is:

A.) National media portrayal, which only further propagates negative views like a spreading virus.

B.) It's a safe bet that these people vote. Combine with media portrayal, it only solidifies an anti-gun opinion.


In general, not just firearms, but in general, taking ones beliefs ( be it political or religious), and belligerently smearing them into the faces of others without any consideration, is a good way to permanently alienate them.


We have to be smarter then this, because they'll remember it next time they vote.
 

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Offended ? Who cares ? Go to youtube and look at any of the hundreds of videos about open carry and the first thing the cops say is " We got some calls from nervous people." So what ! That is their problem, take a pill, get over it. It makes me nervous and want to kill people when they play their stupid boom boxes so loud they rattle my windows, but you don't see me calling the cops. They wouldn't do anything about it anyway. Too bad they don't treat boom boxers the way they do open carriers. "We got some calls from nervous citizens about your booming so we need to search you, confiscate your boom box, and take you to jail."
Thank you for reinforcing my previous point - that being the "I - me - mine" mentality. I don't recall anyone ever being killed by a boom box - and most places have laws to cover noise and public disturbances be they enforced or not. While *you* as an individual may have "rights" - those self professed rights do not extend beyond your home and the tip of your nose I'm afraid. When you enter the public space - then *your* rights bump up to the "rights" of those around you. That is why we have "laws" to deal with these interpersonal conflicts that arise in public from time to time. Besides laws - we have what are termed societal mores. When a society evolves over time as our has since the country's formation that society forms an opinion on what's "acceptable" in public and what's not. Sometimes these mores are codified into laws while others can stem from religious dogma. What all this means is that in public *your* rights are balanced along with the rights of everyone else and if the public at large deems that open carry is "unacceptable" due to public safety concerns and then pushes for that belief to be codified into law - you will see it happen regardless of what *you* may feel on a personal level. This is simply the way it is and always has been. The world of our fathers is not the world we are living in just as the world our children live in will be different from now. That is the way of the world and it will not change because "some" feel change is wrong. When we were young - we embraced the "new". As we get older the concept of "change" loses it's luster as we begin grasp at the past and lament what the young are currently doing. This is normal human behavior - nothing more - and it occurs with each passing generation. USA2
 

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In general, not just firearms, but in general, taking ones beliefs ( be it political or religious), and belligerently smearing them into the faces of others without any consideration, is a good way to permanently alienate them.


We have to be smarter then this, because they'll remember it next time they vote.
I love that illustration. LOL1
 

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The only way we win this battle is to take someone to the range with you the next time educate them on gun safety get them interested in guns and reloading and our culture.


otherwise.....NEW FLASH we will loose, simply because the media and the lemmings' perception will be against us, we will loose at the ballot box.

we need more of the uneducated converted over to our side....

oh yes mark my words The Constitution has be amended before, you can but they will try again. Don't say never

If we don't get public opinion on our side we will most certainly loose the war, right or no right
 

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Because that worked so well for minorities getting their civil rights.
 

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Because that worked so well for minorities getting their civil rights.
I've often wondered what some people who have replied in this thread would have said when Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus. Probably the exact same things they've said here, "it upsets people", "she's hurting the cause", "common sense dictates...", "rights shouldn't be exercised".
 

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I've often wondered what some people who have replied in this thread would have said when Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus. Probably the exact same things they've said here, "it upsets people", "she's hurting the cause", "common sense dictates...", "rights shouldn't be exercised".
Any "correlations" to the civil rights protests are misguided I'm afraid. Civil rights discrimination was already changing in much of the country and the protestors had the support of the main stream media for the most part as well as in government - something that open carry does not. The people do not view it the same. USA2
 

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The only way we win this battle is to take someone to the range with you the next time educate them on gun safety get them interested in guns and reloading and our culture.


otherwise.....NEW FLASH we will loose, simply because the media and the lemmings' perception will be against us, we will loose at the ballot box.

we need more of the uneducated converted over to our side....

oh yes mark my words The Constitution has be amended before, you can but they will try again. Don't say never

If we don't get public opinion on our side we will most certainly loose the war, right or no right
So they amend the constitution to say the people don't have the rights to arms, what are you going to do if that happens? if you are like a lot of folks you won't do anything (like turning them in) because you believe the government does not have the right to bar you from arms. When they start storming houses they will have a lot of problems on their hands like Northern Ireland had/has with the IRA.
 

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Any "correlations" to the civil rights protests are misguided I'm afraid. Civil rights discrimination was already changing in much of the country and the protestors had the support of the main stream media for the most part as well as in government - something that open carry does not. The people do not view it the same. USA2
I was comparing, not correlating. But for the sake of argument, do you think that support of the main stream media and government happened the day after General Lee surrendered? It took many decades. A little over ten years ago gay marriage was illegal. Today, it is recognized by the federal government and 19 states. In ten more years there will probably be a SCOTUS decision that makes it legal everywhere. The open carry movement is in its infancy. It may go nowhere but who's to say where it will be in ten, twenty, or thirty years? But, support isn't really relevant to right or wrong. If it was, then we should all shut up about Obama because him being elected twice makes it obvious that he has the support of the majority of the electorate.
 
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I was comparing, not correlating. But for the sake of argument, do you think that support of the main stream media and government happened the day after General Lee surrendered? It took many decades. A little over ten years ago gay marriage was illegal. Today, it is recognized by the federal government and 19 states. In ten more years there will probably be a SCOTUS decision that makes it legal everywhere. The open carry movement is in its infancy. It may go nowhere but who's to say where it will be in ten, twenty, or thirty years? But, support isn't really relevant to right or wrong. If it was, then we should all shut up about Obama because him being elected twice makes it obvious that he has the support of the majority of the electorate.
"Jim Crow" - while a holdover from the post Civil War era - was a "regional issue" by the time the civil rights movement started while the rest of the country for the most part essentially supported the concept of less discrimination. By then the South where it still existed was not unlike old Japan at the time when the first Westerners showed up and the Japanese came to the realization that the world had moved on and they were now antiquated. The civil rights agenda was also supported in the MSM as well as by some government officials. None of this is true with open carry. The SCOTUS long ago decided that "some" restrictions on firearms were legal and in most places today it is illegal to open carry. As such there will be no "groundswell" on this matter as it's already been decided and like Jim Crow - it is relegated to a few regional areas that simply have not caught up with the times. While most folks may feel that gun owners should have the right to own firearms - that does not translate into acceptance of folks walking around the mall with an AR strapped to their back. Like resistance to gay marriage - this will lose because the country and the culture have moved on. USA2
 

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"Jim Crow" - while a holdover from the post Civil War era - was a "regional issue" by the time the civil rights movement started while the rest of the country for the most part essentially supported the concept of less discrimination. By then the South where it still existed was not unlike old Japan at the time when the first Westerners showed up and the Japanese came to the realization that the world had moved on and they were now antiquated. The civil rights agenda was also supported in the MSM as well as by some government officials. None of this is true with open carry. The SCOTUS long ago decided that "some" restrictions on firearms were legal and in most places today it is illegal to open carry. ...
Is that what they tell you in New York?

Open carry, of a handgun, is legal in 44 states, only 13 of which require a permit to do so.

Your state of New York, of course, is one of the very few (6+DC) that don't allow it. So is Texas, of all places, where these protests actually have a good chance of working, unlike your state.

It amazes me how people in New York think their state is "normal."
 

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Is that what they tell you in New York?

Open carry, of a handgun, is legal in 44 states, only 13 of which require a permit to do so.

Your state of New York, of course, is one of the very few (6+DC) that don't allow it. So is Texas, of all places, where these protests actually have a good chance of working, unlike your state.

It amazes me how people in New York think their state is "normal."
If it's "legal" in Texas already - what's the purpose then for a protest?? If you are trying to "force your will" on private businesses - you are fighting a losing battle as most folks will lend towards "property rights" believing that the property owner gets to decide. As we have seen - the net result has been for corporations to ban firearms within their establishments in all states. Sounds to me more like they are simply making life harder for all gun owners now by turning businesses - and people - against gun owners rather than "making a point" for others to follow. More often than not the surest way to lose a "right" is to try to force it on others. Some day those doing these "publicity stunts" will come to understand that. Like the old saying goes - it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone else. "In your face" rarely achieves the intended result. USA2
 

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If it's "legal" in Texas already - what's the purpose then for a protest?? If you are trying to "force your will" on private businesses - you are fighting a losing battle as most folks will lend towards "property rights" believing that the property owner gets to decide. As we have seen - the net result has been for corporations to ban firearms within their establishments in all states. Sounds to me more like they are simply making life harder for all gun owners now by turning businesses - and people - against gun owners rather than "making a point" for others to follow. More often than not the surest way to lose a "right" is to try to force it on others. Some day those doing these "publicity stunts" will come to understand that. Like the old saying goes - it only takes a few bad apples to ruin it for everyone else. "In your face" rarely achieves the intended result. USA2
Im speaking for myself but that has been my problem with this debate. Business owners have the right to deny your entry with OC and when you go to the extreme and put the owner between you and other customers you will have to deal with their choice. If you must protest do it in a public area... I have no problem with that. I have been to multiple 2A rallies where majority OCd... cool! Unfortunately businesses get told more and more on what they can and cannot do like smoking for example. If you don't like to be around smoke at a bar, don't go to that one! Let the owners decide and you spend or don't spend your $ there. Same with guns. If they don't have gun buster signs up at the moment, and you go in with rifles, be prepared to not end up shopping there after the signs do go up. So call me enemy of 2A or whatever... I love my gun rights but I support business owners rights too.
 

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... your "concept" of the world is long dead and gone and has not existed for over 150 years...
And your ignorance is exactly why we have this problem to begin with. There are a lot of people in this country that are able to prove you wrong. That's the kind of arrogant know-it-all attitude that so many big state people are famous for; they think that their little world defines the way everybody should think and act.

No my world is not long dead, it's alive and well in the places where they haven't compressed all of the worst characteristics of mankind in to the open sewers that some people think are sophisticated metropolitan areas.
 
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