[BlunderDog]

There was recently a thread posted where a plethora of people wrote their opinions and voiced concerns about condition, availability, and price these days.

In all that was written, only one person brought up the real issue about this discussion. Actual condition of the parts.

This member was CNelson when he wrote:
"..anyone else who reparks, I think that re-parking is cosmetic in nature and does not increase the value of the item, nor does it increase the condition of the item from "used" to "excellent as new". Regardless of the appearance the item still has a round count on it, there is still wear and tear on the wearing surfaces, round count is most likely indertiminable due to the nature of the item being a take-off or just by its second hand nature. To me the act of re-parking an item and "upgrading" it's condition is subverting and unscrupulous. In certain circumstances it can be downright dangerous."

Not to re-visit or open old wounds but this needs to be talked about and discussed like grown-ups. Without others asking for it to be closed or shut down. Without personal attacks or mods deleting it. This is important to all.

So few people actually know what they think they know about these parts or the history behind the individual parts. When this issue was brought up several months ago I believe it was Geeck that wrote, with the disappearance or lack of available G.I. parts, park tanks have been running overtime or around the clock, all over America. He nailed it with this statement.

Randy at Treeline and Mike at Windy City are perfect examples of this. They bought hundreds of kits and reparked them, sold them at profit, and now everyone post threads, look at my N.O.S. rifle, or kit, or parts. This is ridiculous and ludicrous and goes back to what CNelson wrote. They are not NOS, never were, and never will be again.

In order for this issue to be discussed intelligently, it requires some actual thought before writing. Many of you have opened actual NOS parts and know what they look like but few out there will ever do it again, and if I wanted to I could fool every one of you.

I have hundreds of NOS wrappers that retain the white residue inside, for all kinds of parts. I could refinish parts and put them back in the packaging and sell them as NOS and nobody would have a clue as to their actual condition under that parkerizing.

I could make up an excuse for opening them that I wanted to make sure it was the right part, or to check the condition so it would be described properly and without rust, or to make sure the package didn't have a hole in it and cause degradation to the parts, or it was stored in a humid climate, or I could not make out the NSN number on the package and had to make sure, or it got submerged and I had to de-water it to save it. Starting to get the point here ?

Somebody would buy it a pay a premium for it. They would be proud to get it too. Would I do this ? No. Could I do this ? or could anyone else ? Yes. Have they already ? Yes. Would others buy them and brag about their good fortune here or try to resell at profit ? Yes. What does all this mean ? Nothing.

The only thing that means anything is the truth. The truth is that if the Marines in Nam during combat and the wide eyed young recruits at boot camp, couldn't tear them up during basic training, they can't be torn up.
You can get a damaged trigger housing spline or op rod tab that needs refurbished, or get a bolt face with minor etching from primer leakage, or a worn extractor bearing and weakened springs throughout and a worn extractor claw. But for the most part these rifles are indestructable and the price should reflect that as compared to poodle shooters.

I only see one solution to this latest problem here and conflicting opinions of members about condition and price. Hawk was a lot of things here, some thought he was great, some not so great, but one thing he was is a thinker. He was always thinking about ways to make things better or make things happen. Not always right and often exactly right. Maybe we should take a page from his book of memoirs on this issue ?

If the owner and staff instituted an auction site here for members only, for GI parts only? People that wanted to bid on things they needed or were searching for specifically could bid, people that weren't interested could ignore. It wouldn't affect the PX prices in any way either. That is the beauty of ignoring. You ignore something or someone and they go away. You can't find that very special part you have been searching for the last four years, go to auction here. Juss sayin.

There are no problems, only solutions.

 

[tlturbo]

I agree with Blunderdog but having collect firearms over 55 years, I want to ask several questions. PLEASE PLEASE do NOT take offense at these questions but I would just like to point out a few things and would appreciate polite replies just so I understand this.

The previous discussion about pricing and reparker and NOS issues all have valid points BUT the bottom line is all of these rifles are commercial versions of the Military only M14 (granted there are a very few in private hands). I KNOW that there is a difference between a real M14 and a replica M1A even though many insist on calling them all M14's (THEY ARE NOT). So none of these are "military collector firearms" - they are all relicas. So why does someone demand (and pay ridiculous amounts) to have a rifle that has all one manufacturer parts, or NOS, etc? The most important part (receiver) is still a replica. BUT if it is what you want and makes you feel good, THAT IS GREAT. But why then are the prices for a particular GI part so ridiculous? Just demand from those that just have to have it? It is still going in a replica. Is a mixed parts M1A worth that much less that a manufacture matching M1A? I could care less about that and more about who built it and the quality of the build. And I agree demand helps dictate prices but in a replica gun with no collector value, who cares? The only reason my rifle is special to me (M1a) is because I have documentation it was a Marine Corp armorer built National Match rifle and not just an off the rack or put together Springfield.

A prime example of this is the Thompson Sub Machine gun. Try and find an original 1921 Colt part. Not many around and if found, will cost a fortune. BUT if you have a Colt (yes I do) it needs to be correct. And the serious collectors throw up when they learn there is a Savage part in a Colt gun. BUT these are serious collector guns and people could care less what parts are in a replica West Hurley or Model 27. They are just replicas.

I truly don't mean to offend anyone and I love the M1A mainly because I shot it in DCM matches years ago and just LOVE it but in light of the last few discussions about part prices, I thought this issue was pertinent.

Look forward to polite replies.

 

[Chingon]

So why does someone demand (and pay ridiculous amounts) to have a rifle that has all one manufacturer parts, or NOS, etc?

Ask that question to a lot of Garand collectors. I realize that a Garand is a Garand unless you buy a "new" Springfield model but the fact is that folks want their stuff the way they want them.

It might not be an actual M14 but it's as close to what some folks will probably own. Same reason why Shelby Cobra kit cars still run a premium.

 

[innocent bystander]

I agree with Blunderdog but having collect firearms over 55 years, I want to ask several questions. PLEASE PLEASE do NOT take offense at these questions but I would just like to point out a few things and would appreciate polite replies just so I understand this.

The previous discussion about pricing and reparker and NOS issues all have valid points BUT the bottom line is all of these rifles are commercial versions of the Military only M14 (granted there are a very few in private hands). I KNOW that there is a difference between a real M14 and a replica M1A even though many insist on calling them all M14's (THEY ARE NOT). So none of these are "military collector firearms" - they are all relicas. So why does someone demand (and pay ridiculous amounts) to have a rifle that has all one manufacturer parts, or NOS, etc? The most important part (receiver) is still a replica. BUT if it is what you want and makes you feel good, THAT IS GREAT. But why then are the prices for a particular GI part so ridiculous? Just demand from those that just have to have it? It is still going in a replica. Is a mixed parts M1A worth that much less that a manufacture matching M1A? I could care less about that and more about who built it and the quality of the build. And I agree demand helps dictate prices but in a replica gun with no collector value, who cares? The only reason my rifle is special to me (M1a) is because I have documentation it was a Marine Corp armorer built National Match rifle and not just an off the rack or put together Springfield.

A prime example of this is the Thompson Sub Machine gun. Try and find an original 1921 Colt part. Not many around and if found, will cost a fortune. BUT if you have a Colt (yes I do) it needs to be correct. And the serious collectors throw up when they learn there is a Savage part in a Colt gun. BUT these are serious collector guns and people could care less what parts are in a replica West Hurley or Model 27. They are just replicas.

I truly don't mean to offend anyone and I love the M1A mainly because I shot it in DCM matches years ago and just LOVE it but in light of the last few discussions about part prices, I thought this issue was pertinent.

Look forward to polite replies.

I think that's the answer to your question in bold. When something is special to someone, in this case, rifles, they can tend to get a bit irrational and compulsive from time to time. I bet we all have some great 'crazy girlfriend' stories!
I personally don't get the taboo about calling them M14's. Members know what we have, but it's off limits like some sacred code has been violated. It doesn't bother me one way or the other, just seems a bit over the top, kinda like "don't call me Francis."

 

[CNelson]

This:
http://m14forum.com/m14/116075-sometimes-we-do-dumb-things-2.html
Read it.

I once saw Nancy Chin sell a box full of "scrap metal" M14 parts on gunbroker. These were rusted and pitted and you name it...

A month later the winner of that auction suddenly had a bunch of "new" stuff to sell on gunbroker.

...

A part that is New In Wrap is only New In Wrap until the wrapper is opened after that is "New Old Stock".

A part is New Old Stock until it is installed. Once it has been installed, for test fitting, or any other purpose it becomes "As new, excellent Condition".

Once a gun with a new part on it is fired that part becomes "used, (condition), (round count).
Example, if I were to sell my LRB bolt I have in my rifle it's description would read: Used, fair condition, 85% original finish, 1074 rounds"
If I reparked it: Used, fair condition, re-parked, 1074 rounds"


A USGI part that came off of a rifle and was DRMO'd then ended up on the civilian market, regardless of whether it is in a parts kit or sold individually is "Used"... Why? Well for one, how many rounds does it have on it? With out the USGI receiver and the log book with round count you have no way of knowing. We even have problems keeping track of round counts on our units guns when we go to the range for Qualifications.

...

And here is the real rub, seeing how the M14 is still in service, and we (active duty guys) are having problems getting parts for them, there was that lot of M14 parts that just sold on Gov liqudations... Now why did that happen?

It happened because that particular lot of parts was liquidated. Why? Because while they may have been accepted during the contract run, subsequent usage either yielded higher breakage rates, or improper fit, stoppages. Now this doesn't apply to every single part in that lot. It just means there was an unacceptable level or percentage of parts that failed to meet expectations in use. Example, the last contract TRW made for replacement bolts, a lot of people have noted that they seem to be a bit longer in the length of the locking lugs than normal. Not a problem for every single person, a civilian can also just lap the lugs in, but at the arsenal if the bolt doesn't fit, they grab another bolt until they find one that fits, and at the end of the year, there's this pile of TRW bolts with lugs just a tad bit too long... and they got to go. Get the picture?

 

[XM25Ren]

This thread is a waste of time.

 

[CNelson]

This tread is a waste of time.

 

[Seventh Fleet]

When it comes to M-14/M-1A's all I care about is that they fire and function correctly/safely and that they are accurate within 2-3 inches @ 100 yds. If they meet that criteria then I'm good with them.

I don't care if it's a SA Inc or a Polytech receiver with mix-master GI parts as long as it has a 22" barrel with GI FH/bayonet lug, GI wood and looks the part of a Nam era M14. Anything more sophisticated and expensive is left for the collector items in my gun collection where the real money has been invested.

7th

 

[XXIV Corps]

When it comes to M-14/M-1A's all I care about is that they fire and function correctly/safely and that they are accurate within 2-3 inches @ 100 yds. If they meet that criteria then I'm good with them.

I don't care if it's a SA Inc or a Polytech receiver with mix-master GI parts as long as it has a 22" barrel with GI FH/bayonet lug, GI wood and looks the part of a Nam era M14. Anything more sophisticated and expensive is left for the collector items in my gun collection where the real money has been invested.

7th

+1 Seventh Fleet, well stated.

DI5

 

[Dredsen]

renisin has a penchant for being.... renisiny


I have noticed a lot of the "NOS , only opened to check if correct part"

its def a case of the simplest explanation. One can bet a great deal are indeed reparked.
however i often see threads asking "is this reparked"

so i propose a question:
can one , even a bonafide expert , tell if a part is reparked from a photograph?


so back to the OP, what can we do about this?

you suggest integrating an auction feature. i have to say that is not likely. there would be a huge expense to integrate that feature.


I assume you are suggesting an auction site so that it can be moderated? what makes this idea prevent these issues?

I think we should have a px ROE that sellers of usgi parts muat sell any opened package as USED even if they claim to have opened it. no "like new" allowed either

only sealed packages can be sold as new.


i have seena lot of "as new" , "like nos"

 

[KurtC]

When Rock Island Arsenal was refurbishing M14's into EBR's back in 2008, what did they do for replacement parts?

 

[tmcfalls]

I agree with Blunderdog but having collect firearms over 55 years, I want to ask several questions. PLEASE PLEASE do NOT take offense at these questions but I would just like to point out a few things and would appreciate polite replies just so I understand this.

The previous discussion about pricing and reparker and NOS issues all have valid points BUT the bottom line is all of these rifles are commercial versions of the Military only M14 (granted there are a very few in private hands). I KNOW that there is a difference between a real M14 and a replica M1A even though many insist on calling them all M14's (THEY ARE NOT). So none of these are "military collector firearms" - they are all relicas. So why does someone demand (and pay ridiculous amounts) to have a rifle that has all one manufacturer parts, or NOS, etc? The most important part (receiver) is still a replica. BUT if it is what you want and makes you feel good, THAT IS GREAT. But why then are the prices for a particular GI part so ridiculous? Just demand from those that just have to have it? It is still going in a replica. Is a mixed parts M1A worth that much less that a manufacture matching M1A? I could care less about that and more about who built it and the quality of the build. And I agree demand helps dictate prices but in a replica gun with no collector value, who cares? The only reason my rifle is special to me (M1a) is because I have documentation it was a Marine Corp armorer built National Match rifle and not just an off the rack or put together Springfield.

A prime example of this is the Thompson Sub Machine gun. Try and find an original 1921 Colt part. Not many around and if found, will cost a fortune. BUT if you have a Colt (yes I do) it needs to be correct. And the serious collectors throw up when they learn there is a Savage part in a Colt gun. BUT these are serious collector guns and people could care less what parts are in a replica West Hurley or Model 27. They are just replicas.

I truly don't mean to offend anyone and I love the M1A mainly because I shot it in DCM matches years ago and just LOVE it but in light of the last few discussions about part prices, I thought this issue was pertinent.

Look forward to polite replies.

I think you over looked one important point in your post and that is the impending scarcity of USGI parts make them the collectible item not the rifle per se. Even if the parts are used in a replica rifle they in and of themselves are a scarce and thus collectible commodity. Myself, I wouldn't pay the higher prices of today for USGI parts if I could find an equivalent or better quality modern manufactured part, but a lot of people will because their is a scarcity to them and they have the mystic of having been U.S. military parts.

 

[CNelson]

When Rock Island Arsenal was refurbishing M14's into EBR's back in 2008, what did they do for replacement parts?

They didn't have to find new parts. The rifles used were pulled from Anniston Army Depot. They were all A coded rifles with new USGI barrels. Only 5 parts were removed and replaced with new parts. Those parts were the Op Rod Guide, the front band and other parts such as the butt plate and Stock. Op Rod Guide was changed to the Sage Op Rod Guide and the front band was replaced with a crush washer. The rest of the rifle was as it was placed in storage mid 80's.

I think you over looked one important point in your post and that is the impending scarcity of USGI parts make them the collectible item not the rifle per se. Even if the parts are used in a replica rifle they in and of themselves are a scarce and thus collectible commodity. Myself, I wouldn't pay the higher prices of today for USGI parts if I could find an equivalent or better quality modern manufactured part, but a lot of people will because their is a scarcity to them and they have the mystic of having been U.S. military parts.

If thats the case, and you want to "invest" in M14 parts then buy them in the wrap and leave them in the wrap unopened. Cause once you open the wrap they go down in value, and sometimes you open that wrap and you find out that the VCI stuff they put in that wrapper didn't work so well... or you find out you've been had and your part is fake. So leave it in the wrap and pray that it pays off.

 

[six clicks]

renisin has a penchant for being.... renisiny


I have noticed a lot of the "NOS , only opened to check if correct part"

its def a case of the simplest explanation. One can bet a great deal are indeed reparked.
however i often see threads asking "is this reparked"

so i propose a question:
can one , even a bonafide expert , tell if a part is reparked from a photograph?


so back to the OP, what can we do about this?

you suggest integrating an auction feature. i have to say that is not likely. there would be a huge expense to integrate that feature.


I assume you are suggesting an auction site so that it can be moderated? what makes this idea prevent these issues?

I think we should have a px ROE that sellers of usgi parts muat sell any opened package as USED even if they claim to have opened it. no "like new" allowed either

only sealed packages can be sold as new.


i have seena lot of "as new" , "like nos"

I have new usgi parts that I opened, if I sell them I will describe this but I WILL call them new because in or out of a wrapper they are new. Period.

 

[Ted Brown]

One of the advantages of being an licensed gun smith is that I can legally work on any firearm. Right now I'm doing accuracy work on a real TRW M14 that belongs to an eastern Police Department. I inspected all the parts using military gauges and found that this rifle is an arsenal rebuild. Of course it's completely serviceable and appeared in new condition, but I found the parts had all been refinished. The TRW logo is nearly indistinguishable from sand blasting. Apparently many of the M14 rifles in our government's stockpile are in in similar condition. Few replacement parts have been contracted and they are resorting to used surplus parts to keep these guns running.

A few years ago I located a nice stash of NOS in wrap parts. It pretty much filled a foot locker (now I'm down to zilch...) I paid a hefty price for them, but much less than I would have to pay now. What I've learned is that one shouldn't pass up an opportunity to pick up a bunch of nice parts at most any price. Supplies are getting very short and prices high, but they keep going up. Note that we were paying $150 for a complete parts kit in 1985 and only about $165 for a new SAI receiver at the time.

One thing I do require is that I see first hand what I am buying. Like others have noted, there are a lot of refinished, sometimes unserviceable parts floating around. It's gotten to the point that I am resorting to buying some commercial parts for my builds, but I am very careful about the quality of those parts. There is not much choice.

 

[CNelson]

One of the advantages of being an licensed gun smith is that I can legally work on any firearm. Right now I'm doing accuracy work on a real TRW M14 that belongs to an eastern Police Department. I inspected all the parts using military gauges and found that this rifle is an arsenal rebuild. Of course it's completely serviceable and appeared in new condition, but I found the parts had all been refinished. The TRW logo is nearly indistinguishable from sand blasting. Apparently many of the M14 rifles in our government's stockpile are in in similar condition. Few replacement parts have been contracted and they are resorting to used surplus parts to keep these guns running.

A few years ago I located a nice stash of NOS in wrap parts. It pretty much filled a foot locker (now I'm down to zilch...) I paid a hefty price for them, but much less than I would have to pay now. What I've learned is that one shouldn't pass up an opportunity to pick up a bunch of nice parts at most any price. Supplies are getting very short and prices high, but they keep going up. Note that we were paying $150 for a complete parts kit in 1985 and only about $165 for a new SAI receiver at the time.

One thing I do require is that I see first hand what I am buying. Like others have noted, there are a lot of refinished, sometimes unserviceable parts floating around. It's gotten to the point that I am resorting to buying some commercial parts for my builds, but I am very careful about the quality of those parts. There is not much choice.

Ted, Just a quick question, have you seen or handled a "thrustline mfg" Op rod? If so, what was your opinion of it?

 

[USMC86]

As a still relatively "new" guy and 99% done with my first Winchester build I fought the urge to contribute here today. Having said that, I don't get the rub some have with calling their rifle an M14.. As I understand it, M1A is a registered trade mark of an SA INC. product and not necessarily the correct moniker used to describe any other non-gov issued M14.. I'll just enjoy MY rifle because it's simply gorgeous and I've appreciated the camaraderie of this community.. Mine will be sporting an LRB receiver and I'm ecstatic to own one and won't be calling it my M1A.. A rose by any other name etc..

Splitting hairs gentlemen?

My 2 cents worth..

 

[tlturbo]

Thanks for letting me ask my original question and for the decent replies and great information. I understand everyones remarks (except "waste of Time").

The only comment I have on M14 vs M1A nomenclature is interest in a REAL M14 and when I see M14 for sale, I get excited until I go read the ad and it's an M1A. IF you want an real M14, there IS a difference.

Carry on.

 

[XM25Ren]

Its a waste of time because it is the same old song and dance. It has been beat to death and the same people say the same thing over and over again, time and time again( me included). If you own a SAI it is an M1A, but if you do not, it is known as an M14 though they all are m14s.

The same people say that these rifles are not collectable, how then do you explain m14s/M1As bringing as much as $5000.00+ dollars?

Please get your heads out of the sand and wake up, USGI parts rifles as you folks like to call them bring a premium that is a cold hard fact.

 

[XM25Ren]

Thanks for letting me ask my original question and for the decent replies and great information. I understand everyones remarks (except "waste of Time").

The only comment I have on M14 vs M1A nomenclature is interest in a REAL M14 and when I see M14 for sale, I get excited until I go read the ad and it's an M1A. IF you want an real M14, there IS a difference.

Carry on.

The 20000.00 to 30000.00 dollar price tag should clue you in.