Do the Stock and Shim the GS...Those will do more than anything else for your problem I think
Hans
Hans
Front band tab not touching "ferrule?"
Looking at my new LRB build I noticed that the tab on the front band is not touching the ferrule, maybe 1/16"-1/8" gap. I'm using a USGI synthetic stock. The lockup at the trigger group is perfect getting tight at the tip of the trigger. The receiver heel is in contact with the stock. The gas cylinder is not unitized or shimmed, but the front band is solid and doesn't move at all. There is the proper vertical clearance at the front band.
So I'm wondering how I can resolve this. I'd prefer not to bed it, this isn't a match rifle. So could I:
1. Build up the ferrule on the synthetic stock with Marine-Tex or something similar so there is proper tension at the tab?
or maybe:
2. Bend the tab up so there is proper tension?
Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm not totally against bedding it so if that's the right way to do it I'll go that route. In that case, can anyone recommend someone who would steel bed my rifle in a USGI synthetic stock? And if I do bed it, should I also unitize the gas system?
So I'm wondering how I can resolve this. I'd prefer not to bed it, this isn't a match rifle. So could I:
1. Build up the ferrule on the synthetic stock with Marine-Tex or something similar so there is proper tension at the tab?
or maybe:
2. Bend the tab up so there is proper tension?
Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm not totally against bedding it so if that's the right way to do it I'll go that route. In that case, can anyone recommend someone who would steel bed my rifle in a USGI synthetic stock? And if I do bed it, should I also unitize the gas system?
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
Should I take all the paint off the ferrule so it's metal on metal?
The basic idea is that the barrel will move when you shoot so the gas cylinder will move too as will the front band if it's unitized or shimmed tight to the GC. Since the stock and ferrule are supposed to stay stationary, the front band lip will move relative to it, and if the surfaces in contact with each other are smooth, they'll move easily, and the tension will then slide them back together into the same position. It's the consistency of that position which aids accuracy. So, yes, the portion of the ferrule that might be in contact with the front band lip should not only be free of paint but kept as smooth as possible. I've used a Dremel 320 grit finishing abrasive buff (512E), which is rough enough to take off paint but fine enough to still polish the metal underneath. The edges of the lip are sometimes fairly sharp so softening the edges is often a good idea too. Once that's done, putting a little grease between the lip and the ferrule is the finishing touch.Should I take all the paint off the ferrule so it's metal on metal?
At the same time, the ferrule material itself isn't all that thick so be careful to only remove paint. And where the front band lip can't possibly reach the ferrule surface, it's OK to leave the paint as is.
The stock ferrule on my std has had the paint removed
by shooting.Fortunately centered exactly enough Id have to use a tape measure or caliper to detemine if the wears exactly centered.Eyeball method shows tab/forum centered exactly.
I suppose I should use some emery cloth to smooth the contact areas along touch grease.
Ive got some Pro Bed 2000 from midway IIRC it uses a carbon fiber filler the consistency of putty/I have been coonsidering using a carbon fiber arrow shaft material in concert with the glass bedding.Does it need to be a high temp
material?I couldnt find a temp limit on the box or literature.I could call manufacturer if its critical.
Im really anxious to try the weapon after shimming corrected the very sloppy barrel band fit between GC/and barrel but weve had the wettest spring I can recall in over 12 years of drought condition combined w/unusual rain makes the gumbo
grasslands a bit messy. Oh well gives me time to review the most cost effective accurizing procedures thanks to this forums excellent resident experts/others.Not to include some advertising vendors.
by shooting.Fortunately centered exactly enough Id have to use a tape measure or caliper to detemine if the wears exactly centered.Eyeball method shows tab/forum centered exactly.
I suppose I should use some emery cloth to smooth the contact areas along touch grease.
Ive got some Pro Bed 2000 from midway IIRC it uses a carbon fiber filler the consistency of putty/I have been coonsidering using a carbon fiber arrow shaft material in concert with the glass bedding.Does it need to be a high temp
material?I couldnt find a temp limit on the box or literature.I could call manufacturer if its critical.
Im really anxious to try the weapon after shimming corrected the very sloppy barrel band fit between GC/and barrel but weve had the wettest spring I can recall in over 12 years of drought condition combined w/unusual rain makes the gumbo
grasslands a bit messy. Oh well gives me time to review the most cost effective accurizing procedures thanks to this forums excellent resident experts/others.Not to include some advertising vendors.
If there's tension between the ferrule and the front band lip, the two will always end up centered relative to each other unless there's a terrible misalignment of the stock and the barreled action and/or terrible friction between the two (perhaps caused by a dent in the ferrule material). The trick is to achieve that centering before the tension is applied so that there's no sideways pressure until things settle down.The stock ferrule on my std has had the paint removed
by shooting.Fortunately centered exactly enough Id have to use a tape measure or caliper to detemine if the wears exactly centered.Eyeball method shows tab/forum centered exactly.
I suppose I should use some emery cloth to smooth the contact areas along touch grease.
If you're referring to what would hold the carbon fiber arrow shafts in place, a high temp material certainly couldn't hurt. I used the J-B Weld slow cure epoxy, which is good up to 600 degrees F. just to be sure. It can get pretty hot around the barrel, and if one of the arrow shafts came loose, it could block functioning. Also, those carbon fiber arrows are remarkably stiff and can add considerable stiffness to a stock all by themselves.Ive got some Pro Bed 2000 from midway IIRC it uses a carbon fiber filler the consistency of putty/I have been coonsidering using a carbon fiber arrow shaft material in concert with the glass bedding.Does it need to be a high temp
material?...
I noticed this on my rifle tonight. It was pretty apparent with the handguard off and the action in the stock. It sits all the way over pressed to one side of the inside of the ferrule. I can pull it away easily, but it goes back. I tried another rifle in the same stock and it was perfectly centered. I then tried the bad rifle in the good rifle's stock and it's pressed over to the side in that one too. Is there something wrong with this barreled action?If there's tension between the ferrule and the front band lip, the two will always end up centered relative to each other unless there's a terrible misalignment of the stock and the barreled action and/or terrible friction between the two (perhaps caused by a dent in the ferrule material). The trick is to achieve that centering before the tension is applied so that there's no sideways pressure until things settle down.
I guess there could be. But consider that what's up against the inside of the ferrule is really the gas cylinder, so if the splines on the GC or the grooves in the barrel were timed wrong, you'd have the same symptoms. With the action out of the stock, how does the front of the op rod line up with the back of the gas cylinder? And looking at the chamber, is the center, between the two feed ramps, sitting directly over the tail of the op rod spring guide? Finally, with the iron sights zeroed, where does the front sight sit on the dovetail of the flash suppressor - is it centered, hanging off one side, somewhere in-between?...Is there something wrong with this barreled action?
2
It takes maybe 4-5 clicks of windage to get zeroed. I like to zero on the rear sight and keep the front sight centered. Looking at the oprod/gas cylinder and the center of the feed ramps, it might be ever so slightly overtimed. Barely noticeable. But it looks like the whole barrel action is over to one side at the ferrule, not just the gas cylinder. Here's some pics:
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Is this pretty common? I'm assuming bedding it would fix this?
Is this pretty common? I'm assuming bedding it would fix this?
That looks like extreme mis-alignment to me. A pro bedding job (that routes out the bedding areas before bedding) should be able to straighten that out.
It takes maybe 4-5 clicks of windage to get zeroed... But it looks like the whole barrel action is over to one side at the ferrule, not just the gas cylinder...
Is this pretty common? I'm assuming bedding it would fix this?
Your swapping test suggests the problem is with the rifle, not the stock. Since the goal is to get the orientation of the receiver and the portion of the stock it's sitting in such that the barrel (and GC) ends up centered at the ferrule end, bedding would take that misalignment into account because, as Dave P says, the routing of the stock in the bedding process gives the receiver some room to move in the stock....I tried another rifle in the same stock and it was perfectly centered. I then tried the bad rifle in the good rifle's stock and it's pressed over to the side in that one too...
But you might try something simpler first. The horizontal orientation of the receiver in the stock is determined primarily by how the receiver legs engage the cutouts they go into in the stock. If the receiver is positioned parallel to the stock by the legs but the barrel is the least bit crooked to the receiver, you'll get the misalignment you're experiencing. The picture looking up at the GC suggests that if the left receiver leg (looking down and from behind) were pushed a little forward in the stock relative to the right leg, the barreled action would be rotated more towards the center of the ferrule (which is what bedding would be doing). If you added a shim behind that leg, you'd be pushing the leg forward, and the whole action to the right.
How to do it? First, have an aluminum can of beer (soda will work too, but beer is better). With the action out of the stock, you can see where the receiver legs fit down into the stock. Looking forward, you can see a similar cutout where the action also fits inside the stock. Together, it looks like an "L" with a fat foot on its side. If you cut a section of the can to match that shape, you've got a shim for one side of the stock. If you make the "foot" extra fat, you can bend it so that it fits behind the receiver leg as well as beside it, pushing it forward just a bit. Making the "foot" even fatter allows you to double the bend over on itself to push the leg forward even more. Doing this is obviously going to make the fit of the receiver in the stock tighter than it already is, so you may need some help getting the trigger group to lock up. I use something like this http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp-spreader-46809.html to get the heel down onto the stock before I close the trigger guard.
Of course, another solution is to raise the issue with LRB and see what they say.
I did some more up close investigating of the fit, and it looks like what is happening is that the front left of the receiver, opposite where the connector lock sticks out, is interfering with the stock at that point, so as the receiver slides in, it gets pushed over to the one side. Any idea why this could be happening? I filled the selector cutouts on the stock. Is it possible that in doing that I somehow warped the stock? The reason I ask is because I don't think it interfered this way before I filled the cutouts. Maybe my other rifle isn't as tight a fit so it doesn't get pushed off center as much.
Filled the cutout
You may be onto something there.
Ole SIlver
You may be onto something there.
Ole SIlver
Forgot to mention that I did make sure that the connector lock isn't hitting the filled in cutout.
I did some more up close investigating of the fit, and it looks like what is happening is that the front left of the receiver, opposite where the connector lock sticks out, is interfering with the stock at that point, so as the receiver slides in, it gets pushed over to the one side. Any idea why this could be happening? I filled the selector cutouts on the stock. Is it possible that in doing that I somehow warped the stock?...
Please clarify: the cutout you filled in is in the back near the heel where the selector would go on a FA receiver; the connector lock is up front and keeps the back of the op rod spring guide in place, so they wouldn't be interfering with each other. Also, the front of the receiver sits inside and rests against the stock further forward on the side opposite the connector lock; the stock isn't cut back there as it is to make room for the connector lock. So what's interfering?Forgot to mention that I did make sure that the connector lock isn't hitting the filled in cutout.
Sorry for the confusion. I filled in both the front and rear cutouts in the stock. The part that is hitting the stock as the receiver slides in is the front left of the receiver if you were viewing it from the back, where the hole for the connector lock is. I've circled it in the image below.
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I've also ordered another GI synthetic from Numrich, should be here in a few days. I'm crossing my fingers that it fits correctly and it's just something with these stocks. Unfortunately all I have to test out now are the two stocks that I've tinkered with.
I've also ordered another GI synthetic from Numrich, should be here in a few days. I'm crossing my fingers that it fits correctly and it's just something with these stocks. Unfortunately all I have to test out now are the two stocks that I've tinkered with.
I'd say that's good news. That cutout up front allows room for the connector lock; there's no force driving it sideways but if the connector lock did walk out, a loose op rod spring guide wouldn't be a good thing. So the side of the stock is there to keep it from moving too far, should it want to, rather than forcibly holding it in place. Applying sideways force there would tend to push anything forward of the receiver legs in the direction your picture of the ferrule from below shows. Can you open up the area resting against the connector lock enough to give it a bit of clearance?Sorry for the confusion. I filled in both the front and rear cutouts in the stock. The part that is hitting the stock as the receiver slides in is the front left of the receiver if you were viewing it from the back, where the hole for the connector lock is...
At the same time, that wouldn't account for this:
Only thing I can think of is that for whatever reason, the connector lock is sticking out further than normal and will push sideways against any stock with a standard sized cutout. Perhaps the retaining pin hole is in the wrong place in the connector lock, or the lock itself is too long....I tried another rifle in the same stock and it was perfectly centered. I then tried the bad rifle in the good rifle's stock and it's pressed over to the side in that one too. Is there something wrong with this barreled action?
Ok, got a "new" GI fiberglass stock to try out, unmodified. The action slipped in perfectly and is centered on the ferrule. But the variable I was neglecting before was that I had opened up the ferrule in the other two stocks (NM ferrule mod). In this new stock, and inside of the ferrule is barely larger than the gas cylinder, so it seems like the right side of the gas cylinder is still up against the ferrule, but because the ferrule is so narrow it is holding it centered. With the wider ferrule on the other stocks, the whole thing can move even further to the right.
So my question is, could this be the case with a lot of rifles, that the action naturally wants to go to one side or the other, but the narrow ferrule is holding it in place? And when I opened up the ferrule on my two stocks, I noticed this big "misalignment?" Or should it still want to be centered, regardless of the ferrule? I realize that ideally it should be centered, but I'm curious about just a standard grade rifle. Are most up against one side of the ferrule?
Thanks you all so much for your help. It's really appreciated.
So my question is, could this be the case with a lot of rifles, that the action naturally wants to go to one side or the other, but the narrow ferrule is holding it in place? And when I opened up the ferrule on my two stocks, I noticed this big "misalignment?" Or should it still want to be centered, regardless of the ferrule? I realize that ideally it should be centered, but I'm curious about just a standard grade rifle. Are most up against one side of the ferrule?
Thanks you all so much for your help. It's really appreciated.
drx - with all this back and forth discussion, you could have bedded all three of those stocks by now!!
Just throwin' barbs at ya - don't take it seriously!
Just throwin' barbs at ya - don't take it seriously!
hehe, I hear ya. I just love these rifles and I like knowing them inside and out. I could talk about them all day. GI2
drx - with all this back and forth discussion, you could have bedded all three of those stocks by now!!
Just throwin' barbs at ya - don't take it seriously!
As you've seen, the space on the inside of the "U" of the ferrule is just a bit larger than the gas cylinder that fits in it. Someone with experience with large numbers of USGI M14's can give the definitive answer, but I'd hazard the guess that, as a battle rifle rather than a match rifle, the fit you're finding in the unmodified stock did just fine....So my question is, could this be the case with a lot of rifles, that the action naturally wants to go to one side or the other, but the narrow ferrule is holding it in place? And when I opened up the ferrule on my two stocks, I noticed this big "misalignment?" Or should it still want to be centered, regardless of the ferrule? I realize that ideally it should be centered, but I'm curious about just a standard grade rifle. Are most up against one side of the ferrule?...
I doubt that either the USGI wood or synthetic stocks were or could have been manufactured to the same level of precision that the barreled actions were. I know that one of the USGI synthetics I've used was a bit longer, receiver leg cutout to ferrule, than the others and the ferrule was pressed against the back of the front band. Given that variability, bedding, or some other method of customizing the fit of the action in a particular stock would be necessary to wring greater accuracy from what started life as an MBR.
21 - 40 of 40 Posts
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