[drx]

Looking at my new LRB build I noticed that the tab on the front band is not touching the ferrule, maybe 1/16"-1/8" gap. I'm using a USGI synthetic stock. The lockup at the trigger group is perfect getting tight at the tip of the trigger. The receiver heel is in contact with the stock. The gas cylinder is not unitized or shimmed, but the front band is solid and doesn't move at all. There is the proper vertical clearance at the front band.

So I'm wondering how I can resolve this. I'd prefer not to bed it, this isn't a match rifle. So could I:

1. Build up the ferrule on the synthetic stock with Marine-Tex or something similar so there is proper tension at the tab?

or maybe:

2. Bend the tab up so there is proper tension?

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I'm not totally against bedding it so if that's the right way to do it I'll go that route. In that case, can anyone recommend someone who would steel bed my rifle in a USGI synthetic stock? And if I do bed it, should I also unitize the gas system?

 

[Dave P]

Well, bedding is the proper answer, of course.

Other thoughts: shoot it as is - its a floating barrel - might work well!

Try some temp shims to build tension at ferrule.

And the lip is hardened, so it will break if you try to bend it, unless you anneal it first.

 

[tonyben]

Add JBweld to the lip of the front band and sand it until it fits properly with the stock ferrule. Also, make sure your gas cylinder is clearing the inside of the stock.

 

[NoExpert]

One of the guys added shims at the front of the receiver which is the pivot point of the M14. This applied tension to the front band and got better trigger group lock up. It also increased the accuracy of the rifle.

 

[M1AallTheWay]

Looking at my new LRB build I noticed that the tab on the front band is not touching the ferrule, maybe 1/16"-1/8" gap. I'm using a USGI synthetic stock. The lockup at the trigger group is perfect getting tight at the tip of the trigger. The receiver heel is in contact with the stock. The gas cylinder is not unitized or shimmed, but the front band is solid and doesn't move at all. There is the proper vertical clearance at the front band...

First, to be clear, since there's been some confusion about this on past threads discussing a similar issue: We're talking about a 1/16"-1/8" gap between the front band lip that hooks under the ferrule and the ferrule itself, not the distance between the front surface of the ferrule and the back surface of the front band?

There isn't an awful lot of room between the inside top surface at the bottom of the "U" shape of a standard ferrule and the bottom of the gas cylinder sitting just above it. So part of the purpose of any tension is to pull the ferrule down and away from the GC. That much of a gap suggests the ferrule is already either resting against the GC or really close to it.

One way to get both tension and some distance between the ferrule and the GC is to take advantage of the see-saw relationship which can exist between the stock and the barreled action when the trigger group is locked up. You can accomplish that with the shims that NoExpert mentioned (I guess I'm at least one of the guys since I use such shims regularly).

If you look carefully at the stock, you'll notice the area just forward of the bolt lock on both sides is raised slightly. Adding shims there will increase the lockup tension and move the ferrule down towards the front band lip. If lockup tension is already considerable, you might want to use something like a furniture clamp to pull the heel down on the stock rather than making the trigger guard do the work.

 

[drx]

Yes, that’s correct, the gap is between the lip of the front band that hooks under the ferrule and the ferrule itself. So it sounds to me that the goal isn't just getting the proper tension between the two, but also pulling the barrel unit away from the stock for clearance, so building up the ferrule or tab so they make contact isn't reaally addressing this.

I think I will try shimming at the fulcrum and see if that helps. Can I do something more permanent if the shims work, like using bedding material instead of shims? Not a full bedding job, but just to raise the fulcrum?

 

[M1AallTheWay]

Yes, that’s correct, the gap is between the lip of the front band that hooks under the ferrule and the ferrule itself. So it sounds to me that the goal isn't just getting the proper tension between the two, but also pulling the barrel unit away from the stock for clearance, so building up the ferrule or tab so they make contact isn't reaally addressing this.

I think I will try shimming at the fulcrum and see if that helps. Can I do something more permanent if the shims work, like using bedding material instead of shims? Not a full bedding job, but just to raise the fulcrum?

Since I've never bedded a rifle myself, I can't speak to how resilient bedding material is to considerable compression but I'd worry about it being crushed since the contact point is pretty small. If you're using metal shims (I just cut a narrow strip of aluminum from a big sheet .020" thick that I keep around for more extensive shims), just attach them with a little piece of double sided tape. Once it's locked up, they won't be going anywhere. Note that with the shims, lockup can get pretty difficult, so some grease on the trigger guard where it grabs the receiver legs during lockup helps, as does http://www.harborfreight.com/24-inch-ratchet-bar-clamp-spreader-46809.html.

Once you get the tension, so that the curve of the ferrule wants to sit in the curve of the front band lip, you're most likely going to find that squeezing the stock at the ferrule up towards the barrel will cause the side of the of the ferrule to rub against the side of the gas cylinder. Ideally, the only contact in that area should be at the front band lip/ferrule, and one step in match conditioning is to route out that whole area so that there's clearance between the inside of the stock and gas cylinder. But I'd suggest just getting the tension and seeing how she shoots before doing anything drastic.

 

[q.o.c.highlander]

Good shims can be made from the brass inside a USGI stripper clip if you do not have sheets of aluminum around.

 

[bd111]

How does it shoot presently? Some of them with zero barrel draw shoot good. I'm a believer in building/rebuilding these rifles stem to stern AMTU-style. But if it shoots acceptably there's not much to be gained by tinkering with one thing at a time. You can end up with more trouble than you started with. Wait til you're ready to glass-bed it and unitize the front end, do the whole job then.

 

[drx]

I'm still learning how to shoot myself, so it's hard to say what's the rifle and what's me. My goal is to rule out the rifle so I can focus on improving my shooting. There are times when I feel like I made a good shot, but the bullet doesn't hit where I called it.

Also, for the heck of it, I swapped the stock and trigger group from my other rifle (also a GI fiberglass) and the lockup was significantly tighter and there's tension now at the ferrule/tab. When I locked down the trigger guard I had to push the heel of the receiver down with my thumb. Maybe this stock is a better match for this receiver?

 

[FPeel]

Also, for the heck of it, I swapped the stock and trigger group from my other rifle (also a GI fiberglass) and the lockup was significantly tighter and there's tension now at the ferrule/tab. When I locked down the trigger guard I had to push the heel of the receiver down with my thumb. Maybe this stock is a better match for this receiver?

If the shoe were on the other foot I'd take it to the range and try it. If it shoots better that would answer the question.

 

[M1A's r BEST]

I bought my M1A in 1978. I spent a lot of time/effort looking for a "more accurate" load for it that wouldn't damage the rifle (broke one op rod - twice - with IMR4350). For the most part I was never happy with the accuracy of the rifle.

About 3 years ago I noticed something funny at the RBC in Feb. 07 at Ramseur (cross hair movement on the target when the hammer dropped) and I found/noticed that there was no contact at the same point you mentioned on your rifle. We ran a couple tight layers of duct tape around the rifle at the front of the stock/handguard and my groups tightened up noticeably/measurably.

Later I took a small soft faced hammer and "bent" the bottom of the plate up till it was snug on the stock ferrule to eliminate that movement. YMMV, as they say.

 

[pbiggs]

Also, for the heck of it, I swapped the stock and trigger group from my other rifle (also a GI fiberglass) and the lockup was significantly tighter and there's tension now at the ferrule/tab. When I locked down the trigger guard I had to push the heel of the receiver down with my thumb. Maybe this stock is a better match for this receiver?

I would test drive it in the config you mention above. I chased the loose gas system on my springer for a while. When you have the tension you have repeatability, with out it it can and most often will reset differently after every shot.

I tried the gas system shim set up and got good results. The best results I found was when I put a unitized system on the rifle. I bought mine (both now) through hueygunner and have a 3rd one that I will be sending to him to unitize.

Back to the post I quoted, try different stocks and see how they fit. I have some GI synthetic stocks where my springer receiver shifts around but are snug on my LRB and vice versa.

I would really recommend you look into getting the gas system (unitized or shimmed) tightened up and mated to a stock as one of the first steps.

 

[M1AallTheWay]

...Also, for the heck of it, I swapped the stock and trigger group from my other rifle (also a GI fiberglass) and the lockup was significantly tighter and there's tension now at the ferrule/tab. When I locked down the trigger guard I had to push the heel of the receiver down with my thumb. Maybe this stock is a better match for this receiver?

All of the USGI synthetics out there are old, most are used, and some are pretty much worn out. Moreover, they aren't made to nearly the level of precision the barreled actions are, so fit and performance are bound to vary from stock to stock on the same rifle. As others have suggested, I'd try shooting it in this new configuration to see if the better fit actually makes a difference. I suspect that if you use the trigger that came with the LRB in combination with the stock that's on there now, it'll still lock up pretty much the same.

 

[drx]

They're both "as new" from Fred's and they look it, so it must be manufacturing tolerance. I went out to the range earlier to test it out but those pesky LEOs had it for training DISHOUT GI2

 

[grndpndr]

Recently finished shimming the GC on my std SAI it did
snug up the forend tension slightly but not quite enough.
I can still fit sheet of writing paper inbetween ferrule and tab with a bit of effort.Of course I need to shoot it first as the gc was all sorts of sloppy beforethe shimming.What Im wondering has anyone even considered removing material from the heel so my GI TG can put more tension on the forend rather than shim the 'fulcrum' area?About bedding the TG?As it sits the TG starts to tighten just as the tip trigger and T guard hook get close together.If that isnt decipherable just like the book says its supposed to!With the vstock/bbl acvtion diss I can see the shiny areas where the reciever heel contacts the stock. fulcrum area about in the middle of reciever and of course the TG front and rear.
As it sits I can tell theres some clearance between GC and the stock as I can push the front of the stock up till I feel contact with the GC.Clues as to how SEI sets up thier weapons w/o traditional bedding?Im of the same opinion full glass bedding is for target rifles.Fortunately Im comfortable w/iron sights and 2.5moa w/ball.Sadly I cant afford thier (SEI's)work.

 

[M1AallTheWay]

Recently finished shimming the GC on my std SAI it did
snug up the forend tension slightly but not quite enough.
I can still fit sheet of writing paper inbetween ferrule and tab with a bit of effort.Of course I need to shoot it first as the gc was all sorts of sloppy beforethe shimming.What Im wondering has anyone even considered removing material from the heel so my GI TG can put more tension on the forend rather than shim the 'fulcrum' area?About bedding the TG?As it sits the TG starts to tighten just as the tip trigger and T guard hook get close together.If that isnt decipherable just like the book says its supposed to!
LOL As it sits I can tell theres some clearance between GC and the stock as I can push the front of the stock up till I feel contact with the GC.Clues as to how SEI sets up thier weapons w/o traditional bedding?Im of the same opinion glass is for target rifles.Sadly I cant afford thier work.

Shimming the GC to keep the front band stationary isn't going to give you any tension unless the front band lip is already in contact with the ferrule, in which case pulling the front band vertical will tend to pull it's lip up tighter against the ferrule. Removing material from the stock's heel will probably do it but it'd be hard to put it back if you take off too much. With a shim, you just take out the shim or put in a different thickness.

When you mention tension, if you can slip paper between between the ferrule and front band lip, where is the tension being applied or felt?

I'm with you in wondering how SEI can get 1 MOA without tinkering with the stock!

 

[grndpndr]

Theres not considerable tension just the drag of the paper
as if you were trying to free float bbl etc and excountered slight resistance.The way the front band slid around im not at all suprised shimming the GC/front band tightened the forend slightly as it located the front band properly.The front band literally rattled around between bbl /gas cylinder prior to shimming.Gonna try it as it sits this wk before any more mods.

 

[hans]

I use USGI fiberglass stocks that I have reinforced the front end on and Glassbedded for my Service Match Rifle...Shoots Awesome....But I end up laying up Fiberglass in the fore-end And utilizing Devcon Plastic-steel. You also will need a 4 inch piece of Coat hanger. I have posted my procedures for working over the USGI Fiberglass Stocks and My bedding procedure and you can search those posts...My Coat hanger method I learned from the best...Our own Guss Fisher. I found the Big Super match stocks uncomfortable for my small hands...I felt Like I was holding a 2x4....So I started to look at reinforcing the flimsy USGI Fiberglass. I worked with a Pt of mine who does Boat hulls and Other Fiberglass Work to come up with a fix. The solution was a combination of Marine grade Fiberglass Cloth or Matting, and Epoxy Resin to give additional Strength and rigidity.

For My walter Mitty Rifle, I have Done the The top rails and Heel as well as skimed the Sides. I am utilizing a Criterion Chrome-lined standard Wgt Barrel with a Shimmed GS. While it does not shoot Match grade accuracy, it will out shoot ANY Rack grade, PERIOD. And It is durable! While the USGI fiberglass fits the USGI recievers well. The Commercial copies vary in demension quite a bit.

Hans

 

[grndpndr]

I believe Ive read that procedure Hans and I beleive I saved
the posts.Im gonna have at it(GI stock/rifle) one mod at a time as far as is possible.