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Fouling Accuracy

3K views 30 replies 13 participants last post by  panther308 
#1 ·
Ok Guys I need your input, I have a SA M1A (STD) and I have done a few things to it over the last few months trying to wring every bit of accuracy out of it, here is the boring stuff

LC Mil-Surp brass (various years)
All sized to 1.628" and trimmed to 2.007"
41.5 gr of IMR 4895
WLR primer
Nosler 168 CC with a OAL of 2.255" (Base to ogive)

The rifle itself is in a STD fiberglass stock and has had the GC shimmed and the GC piston is a Sadlak Tin along with a Sadlak Op rod spring guide, also I have relived the stock some near the ferrule as there was some rubbing and I put some brass shim stock (.015") between the trigger group and stock to increase lockup and I also installed a Sadlak alum mount with a Burris Fullfield 2 3x9 scope.

Everything that has been suggested to do from you guys in the past has improved accuracy, the only thing I have not done is trim the handgard (no real sure on what I need to do their) but any way I went to the range today with 25 hand trickled loads and 25 that were just cranked off of my 550, the latter loads vary in weight due to the powder and the way the hopper cyles the powder if I were guessing I would say +/- .1-.2, so I started off running a few foulers into the berm like always and then started getting serious

All shots were fired from 100yrds with front and rear bags and the first 5 were running about 2.5-3" groups and the next 3-4 sets of 5 shot groups did about the same regardless of being hand trickled or not so I figured ok that's the best I am gonna get so I continued to fire and set my zero and as I did the groups started getting smaller and smaller and by the time I had about 25-30 down range I was getting 1.5-2.0" groups and finished that way, so my question is why does it take that long to settle down ? it was suggested to me to leave the barrel dirty but I have never done that

I am still very new to the M1A platform and still have so much to learn but for the life of me I can't figure this out and my cleaning is not what I would consider extensive all I usually do is pull 3-4 soaked patches of Hoppes 9 down the barrel then a few dry followed by light oil and I do pull the GC piston and clean as well every outing regardless of how many or few rounds fired.

Thanks

Sorry for being long winded MCORPS1
 
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#2 ·
accuracy

The settling most likely occurs from removing your action from the stock,....and a little fouling, but mine shoots the same clean or dirty. If it were me, I would take it out of the fiberglass stock and try it in a walnut stock.....EBR if I was rich.....Then again, it might just be one of those barrels that will never reach the level you wish to attain. I found some surprising things in my wandering through the platform....the G.I. barrels up to and including MW readings of 1.0-1.5 and TE of 1.5-2.0are yielding as good or better accuracy than the SAI new ones....go figure...

I know that some barrel when new did not have readings of 0, so you never know where they started at.

I didn't ask about your shooting ability or how long it takes you to settle in, but I assume you are doing your best, so I would switch stocks.....I still get a little excited even now, after many many years at the range, when I step out onto the field.
 
#3 ·
It may not be the rifle or the ammo, it may just be you settling-in on that particular outing...

Let me say this, when the competitive season starts ramping up, I shoot a full match course when I train. Sometimes, given enough time, I will shoot two full match courses. I would say 80% of the time I shoot a higher score on the 2nd go-around. This I can assure you has nothing to do with the rifle or the ammo. Im just more "in-the-zone"....

So, how are you shooting, from position, from the bench, etc?

There are many reasons why this might happen and it could be rifle or ammo related or it might not be...

Are you sorting your brass? The "precision" of my match loads does not change whether I throw or weigh, BUT if I do not sort the cases, groups do open up. Its possible that some of the brass, just by koinky-dink was a little more consistent. I realize thats a long shot, but food for thought.

Does all your brass have the same number of firings on it or is it mixed...?

How old is your barrel? Barrels "foul" to a certain point, then don't foul no more. The fouling remains consistent, until cleaned. Its possible it took that many rounds for the barrel to "get good". DONT overlook that the cylinder fouls as well. It could have taken it that long to get to a point where is was just right in terms of the harmonics (boy Im tired of that word) it generated in the barrel was good for your rifle.

Its also possible you got you barrel to a specific temp that was just right....?

Did you load all your ammo at the same time and under the same conditions?

Lots of questions, and its more complicated than you handloaded 41.5 of XYZ and threw the others. You have to look at everything, including you pulling the trigger.....
 
#4 ·
Whenever you take the receiver out of the stock, or clean the gas cylinder or piston, or leave oil in the bore of a rifle; you are going to have to shoot a few rounds before the rifle and the parts settle back in. What I suggest before going to the range is to DRY the bore and chamber as best you can with clean patches and you won't see as much variation on the first few shots - and as long as you didn't do any of the other things mentioned.

Combat accuracy was not affected enough by field stripping to worry about, but when we try to punch tiny little groups in a target, we have to be concerned with these things.
 
#5 ·
Try letting the hopes soak over night, depending on your round count copper fouling is deffinetly accumulating. A quick patch through will not get the copper out even if you use a bore brush. Let it soak and do it's work. Not saying your groups will get better but a really clean barrel never hurts my groups. I like 40.0 gr of IMR in LC brass with 168grSMK, 41.0 with Winchester brass. Like others said get the oil out of the bore before shooting. You may have better luck with sierras over the Nosler, I never could get the Nosler 168 cc to shoot, the 165 ballistic tips shoot great though.
 
#6 ·
Is this a new rifle fresh out of the box? If it is, some factory barrels take up to 100 rounds to smooth out and settle in.

It happens. A guy will buy a new rifle shoot a box or so of ammo, and sell the thing as a worthless POS. Next owner picks up from there and can never understand why the guy sold it in the first place.
 
#8 ·
All of the suggested will help. To trim the hand guard, you just trim about 1/16 inch. What I do is using masking tape, I tape the hand guard so that the 1/16 is left out and the tape is your guide to cut or sand till you have it trimmed. My choice is a drimmell with a cut off wheel. Then sand to even. It helps! The loads your gun will like, you will have to find, just takes time. I know how much you hate to go to the range but you got to man up and do it. Just have some fun while your doing it.
 
#9 ·
The rifle has had over 1K thru it (most of which was ADI, Port and SA Milsurp) I have only been reloading for it for a short period of time. I had been doing a complete tear down which included using Hoppe's 9 followed by Butch's Bore Shine to get the copper out I also scrubbed out the GC as well each and every outing, I was told by several here that I was most likely over cleaning so I scrubbed all clean several outings ago with Butch's and let it soak and after that all I have been using is Hoppe's 9. I have not been removing the action from the stock the last couple of outings, I do use a light gun oil after I clean but I figured after 3-5 rounds down the tube it would burn off so right now my girl sits all dirty after (50) rounds and my plan it to take it back out and see how she does, BTW all the ammo that was taken out today was all loaded in the same sitting and the brass was not sorted by weight it's all LC Milsurp and various years and all have been fired the same amount of times.
I have to ask will it hurt things if I don't clean till my next outing ? I only shot (50) rounds
 
#10 ·
clean

I have to ask will it hurt things if I don't clean till my next outing ? I only shot (50) rounds
I can't say it would hurt anything, but i am like you use to be...I can not and do not put a weapon away dirty, just the way I was raised. also, it kind of defeats your purpose in finding the ins and outs of the rifle...what I mean is, if you want to get it shooting right... out of the bag, and no doubt it will be in the bag when and should you need it....then I suggest keeping it clean like before,........ after this set of experiments.
 
#14 ·
Qualifications

People pulling their 14's apart completely every 20, 50, 100 rounds are never going to see 1 moa "consistency" from their rifles, ......
Tearing a 14 apart at 50 rounds for general cleaning is beyond anal and will likely do more harm than good if your expectations are itty-bitty groups...
I would really like to hear your qualifications for making a statement like this ?
Especially when I have stated time and again, so has Rammac and many others, that we have MOA accuracy and consistency from our M14's...and most are not even bedded or match rifles....I also have many witnesses should you care to doubt my statements of Fact.
Your insistence on denying a known fact just makes me wonder about the condition of your rifle...as to whether or not it is capable, or are you, of moa shooting ?
My published scores as a member of five associations and from matches of 17 years and my barn full of trophy's and NRA badges will attest to my rifle's abilities.

Granted, not all rifles are created equal, and not all will exhibit these abilities, but when someone says theirs will, I think it is a bit presumptuos of you to tell others what they will or won't do, without having had one do it for you personally.

I realize you are speaking about strictly match shooting, but
these rifles and all firearms are designed to shoot clean, and be kept clean, otherwise when Garand designed it, he would have directed the military to fire them so many rounds and put away dirty for the next firefight to be accurate.....ridiculous.......I might be anal, but my accomplishments speak for themself.

P.S.
I believe all type shooting is Tactical......DI5
 
#16 · (Edited)
I would really like to hear your qualifications for making a statement like this ?
Especially when I have stated time and again, so has Rammac and many others, that we have MOA accuracy and consistency from our M14's...and most are not even bedded or match rifles....I also have many witnesses should you care to doubt my statements of Fact.
Your insistence on denying a known fact just makes me wonder about the condition of your rifle...as to whether or not it is capable, or are you, of moa shooting ?
My published scores as a member of five associations and from matches of 17 years and my barn full of trophy's and NRA badges will attest to my rifle's abilities.

Granted, not all rifles are created equal, and not all will exhibit these abilities, but when someone says theirs will, I think it is a bit presumptuos of you to tell others what they will or won't do, without having had one do it for you personally.

I realize you are speaking about strictly match shooting, but
these rifles and all firearms are designed to shoot clean, and be kept clean, otherwise when Garand designed it, he would have directed the military to fire them so many rounds and put away dirty for the next firefight to be accurate.....ridiculous.......I might be anal, but my accomplishments speak for themself.

P.S.
I believe all type shooting is Tactical......DI5
And I suppose you retain this 1MOA constant pushing 3000+ rounds a year AND taking your rifle down every 50 or so shots including removing the barreled action from the stock?

I guess all your 14's always shoot inside an inch at 100 yards then? Never 1.25, never 1.75, never 2? ALWAYS inside an inch...? Wow, that's some feat! Send me some of that "tactical Ransom rest" fairy dust when you get the chance...

Define "clean"? So when in combat you hit 50 rounds, I guess you just raise the white flag and call for a "cleaning ceasefire"....? My point is that a schedule, whatever that schedule is, is the most important thing. Wall hanger "immaculate" and neglected are 2 different things...Im not promoting "neglect". Im also not stating a soldier about to head out on a misson should go with an "uncleaned" and inspected rifle.

Im an NRA Master, just missing Highmaster by 1.6 pts this year with an AR. I came in 47th in the M1A Match at Perry in 09. Im my club's yearly Offhand Match champion (This was done with an M14 against folks shooting space guns). Im the current Rhode Island State High Power Service Rifle Champion....I even have a few little trophy trinkets laying around myself....
 
#17 ·
How often do you clean the gas system to keep NM accuracy? Well, each rifle is different and each will tell you after you shoot it enough. Our shooters normally had us clean them somewhere between 300 and 500 rounds, though one rifle wanted to have it's gas system cleaned after every match.

Since most of us don't shoot 300 rounds over a short period of time, I suggest one cleans the gas system every two or three months (during a shooting season) to ensure carbon doesn't build up and rust doesn't form. If you aren't sure how long it will be until you fire it and/or at the end of the shooting season, clean the whole rifle and put it away clean.

In the days when we had wood stocked rifles, we were taught NOT to take the rifle apart during the week we shot it for qualification and NOT to take the gas system apart to clean it. Just clean the barrel and chamber during the week and then clean it completely after we qualified.

Daily cleaning in the field was to "get the chunks out" and maybe run a patch through the bore and chamber just to ensure gunk and crap didn't build up there. One didn't need to take it all the way apart on a daily basis, unless sand, crud, mud or snow got in it.
 
#18 ·
Well Guys I went back out today with 100 rounds of freshly loaded ammo with the load mentioned and the rifle was dirty from the previous day, the first 15-20 did ok (best group was 2") I then proceeded to set the zero and it stayed fairly consistent at 2-2.5" then I cleaned just the bore with Hoppe's 9 and fired off another 15-20 and the groups were again 2-3" then I cleaned the gas system and the barrel and on the first 3-5 out of the barrel the groups open way up then after about 10 rounds they tightened up again and on my last 10 rounds I ended up with this, have no idea on the last round fired I most likely hurried the shot as I wanted to to get the targets and they were getting ready to do a target change and then I would have had to wait another 30-45 mins

 
#19 ·
I am your average Joe shooter that during the course of any given year will shoot 1000-1500 rounds in any one of my 14's. I did my time in the Army and yes cleaning our rifles was akin to a religiosity experience. We were tought that way, we could not turn a rifle in that did not pass the armorers inspection. Some of of took pride in the fact that when we went to the arms room to turn our weapons in, we did not get them handed back to us. One of the motivational factors was we knew we were going to the chow hall right after weapons cleaning and knew if it got handed back to us we were only going to have to wait that much longer to eat. I liked to eat!
My training has and will always carry over to my own personal weapons cleaning. I have a number of match conditioned 14's and they are bedded. I base my complete teardown cleaning based on a round count. As for cleaning after the range all I do is clean the chamber, boreand the face of the bolt. I don't clean off the grease and apply new grease. I will add more if needed. I apply grease using an acid brush. You know those cheap little paint brush looking things. It makes it easy to get grease to the roller. Again as far as the gas system I will typically clean it as Gus said anywhere between 300-500 rounds. One thing I do that has not yet been mentioned and is oh so often overlooked is, I use a COPPER cleaner to remove copper fouling. Copper will build up and copper will cause inconsistancys with your groups. It's been written and read an many posts in the past as well as any decent barrel manufacturers website. I'm not here to argue the point. Copper fouling will build up to a point that you can't remove it. Please use a copper cleaner in your cleaning regiment. I know what I am about to say some of you might think is a bunch of BS, again, I simply don't care to get in a dispute over it. As many of you know I am a Krieger barrel freak! All my rifles have them and I have never ever seen a difference in accuracy or point of impact or group sizes from shot number one to shot number 100 in any given range session. That is clean or dirty hot or cold. The barrels just perform perfect all the time so I can't speak from experience using anything else. My opinion when it comes to cleaning your rifle! Do what you feel is best for your rifle and the perfomance you feel you are getting. Don't neglect your rifle by any means just shoot it and find the sweet spot your rifle likes. It's like finding an ammo that shoots great out if your rifle. What works great for one person might not give you the same results and your Ol standby ammo is the one that you always go back to. No need for us to get into any contests here. We all know what we are capable of and love to do and that's shoot this platform.
 
#20 ·
I am your average Joe shooter that during the course of any given year will shoot 1000-1500 rounds in any one of my 14's. I did my time in the Army and yes cleaning our rifles was akin to a religiosity experience. We were tought that way, we could not turn a rifle in that did not pass the armorers inspection. Some of of took pride in the fact that when we went to the arms room to turn our weapons in, we did not get them handed back to us. One of the motivational factors was we knew we were going to the chow hall right after weapons cleaning and knew if it got handed back to us we were only going to have to wait that much longer to eat. I liked to eat!
My training has and will always carry over to my own personal weapons cleaning. I have a number of match conditioned 14's and they are bedded. I base my complete teardown cleaning based on a round count. As for cleaning after the range all I do is clean the chamber, boreand the face of the bolt. I don't clean off the grease and apply new grease. I will add more if needed. I apply grease using an acid brush. You know those cheap little paint brush looking things. It makes it easy to get grease to the roller. Again as far as the gas system I will typically clean it as Gus said anywhere between 300-500 rounds. One thing I do that has not yet been mentioned and is oh so often overlooked is, I use a COPPER cleaner to remove copper fouling. Copper will build up and copper will cause inconsistancys with your groups. It's been written and read an many posts in the past as well as any decent barrel manufacturers website. I'm not here to argue the point. Copper fouling will build up to a point that you can't remove it. Please use a copper cleaner in your cleaning regiment. I know what I am about to say some of you might think is a bunch of BS, again, I simply don't care to get in a dispute over it. As many of you know I am a Krieger barrel freak! All my rifles have them and I have never ever seen a difference in accuracy or point of impact or group sizes from shot number one to shot number 100 in any given range session. That is clean or dirty hot or cold. The barrels just perform perfect all the time so I can't speak from experience using anything else. My opinion when it comes to cleaning your rifle! Do what you feel is best for your rifle and the perfomance you feel you are getting. Don't neglect your rifle by any means just shoot it and find the sweet spot your rifle likes. It's like finding an ammo that shoots great out if your rifle. What works great for one person might not give you the same results and your Ol standby ammo is the one that you always go back to. No need for us to get into any contests here. We all know what we are capable of and love to do and that's shoot this platform.
How often do you use a copper cleaner, I have Butch's Bore Shine but have only used it a few times, I normally just use Hoppe's 9
 
#21 ·
I use a copper cleaner everytime I go to the range. I do it right after I clean for carbon. I have been using hoppe's elite line called copper terminator or eliminator. I can't remeber. It's amonia free and for the most part orderless. I can get away using it while watching tv with the wife without hearing her complain. There are many on the market the bottom line is to use one. I swab with a wet patch let it do it's magic for ten minute or so them clean with a fresh patch you will be amazed how much green you get out on the patch. I do this until I don't get anymore green. I have used it after firing 40 rounds and it took three attempts. Personally I don't let the copper build up at all.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Ok just stating some things that should be kept in mind. Take them for what they are worth -

Copper can be tough to remove, but there is a limit to how much any given barrel will take. Once it hits that limit, no more will be laid down by the bullet. What this means is you cant shoot a rifle enough (without cleaning) until the bore plugs up. There is a limit. Now copper lays into any machining marks left in the steel. If you are shooting a Krieger or other similarly well made barrel, there will be less machining marks, or none at all. However, if you have a barrel that is of a lesser quality with more machine marks, the copper will build up and fill in those marks. That can be desirable.

Now the problem with hitting the limit with copper is that you can start to fill in the grooves more than the lands. This is why 5r rifling seems to be a hot ticket these day, (though the jury is still out), because the sides of the lands are slanted and there is less of a corner for "stuff" to pack itself into. This is besides the fact that 5r rifling "supposedly" distorts the bullet less, and that may be true....

So copper can be an evil or a angel. But if you have an "average" make of barrel (or even a premium one), chances are (and this is based on my experience and of others so Im not debating. Im just stating experience), "some" copper can actually help. I have pulled down some high scores with barrels with a nice layer of copper laid down. If you clean a target a 600 with high X's in a match, you did it with copper laid down....

I want to post this article to state my case, scroll down to...

"Tips from Brad Sauve, 2004 F-TR Nat'l Champion" - 3rd paragraph...

http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html


You also have to keep in mind, if a high cleaning schedule is what you choose, you increase the chance of damaging the rifling with the jag, if you use one, and also increase the chances of nicking the crown. If you nick the crown, that's it, the barrel will never shoot well unless re-crowned. One trip of the jag down the bore at the wrong angle can do more damage to accuracy than any amount of copper can do, and a great barrel is no less susceptible to this problem that a bad one...

Im just stating these things, because they need to be kept in mind and you must weigh your decisions carefully based on what you are working with and what your goals are....
 
#23 ·
At first I cleaned it too much and too often.
I have put about 200 rounds down range and my accuracy is holding. I have knocked over a lot of cans at 200/300 yards. I need to punch some paper I know. When I do I will post it.
But the copper has to go.
Reading this forum has taught me a lot.
Thank you.
 
#24 ·
I field strip my rifle after every time I shoot it. I usualy shoot 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards. I mean I take that baby apart bolt guts, trigger system, gas system, the works. It comes in and out of the stock almost daily. Why? because it's fun. That's what all this is about to me, fun. I'll never be a match shooter because I'm having too much fun. As a matter of fact I am going to take it apart right now, then I'm going to the range on Saturday and shoot the @$#& out of it.
 
#26 ·
First thing I do after comming home from a shooting session is cleaning the barrel. No lawn mowing, fixing the sink, changing the tires, no matter how much the best of all wifes yells. And a day later cleaning it again. Thats what I was tought by my drill NCOs in the army. My MR223 needs copper solvent after each session, my M1A after 200 to 300 rounds. And once a year a complete disassemble. BTW I cleaned the gas sytem of my M1A first time after 22 years when I installed the EBR stock. No failfunction occured prior to that.
Wolf
 
#27 · (Edited)
Here's a schedule I use for one of my M1A's, a SuperMatch:

I always shoot a 50 round full course of fire when I go to the range. Sometimes two, if I have time.

1) After each range session I run a patch of Kroil through the bore to remove the powder particulates that you "can see" in the bore. I check if the bolt roller needs grease. I clean the chamber with a patch on an M14 chamber brush.

NOTE: I NEVER insert a rod into the muzzle, EVER. I use 50lbs test fishing line and pull patches from the breech. Bore snakes would be perfect too..

2) At 250-300 rounds I do the above, but run JB and Kroil until the patches come out relatively clean. I dont expect white. Just relatively clean. I may pull the trigger for inspection. I dont not remove the barreled action. This rifle is bedded.

NOTE: I will not shoot a match immediately after I do the 250-300 round clean. I will shoot a match course of fire for training and to get the copper back in the bore and do #1 before a match.

3) At 500 rounds I do the above, (may shoot some Shooters Choice down the bore depending on my mood - may also use IOSSO bore paste) and also take out the piston and wipe it down, and brush out the cylinder. Nothing heavy, just a light cleaning. I may pull the trigger for inspection. I dont not remove the barreled action. This rifle is bedded.

NOTE: I will again take it to the range and foul the barrel and do #1 before I would shoot a match....

4) At 1000 rounds, I do the above and I will take the rifle down into its groups. I will give the cylinder a thorough cleaning and use the gas cylinder cleaning drills from Sadlack. I oil the trigger. I remove all grease and inspect for metal ware. I will skim-bed if needed. I replace with new grease...

5) At 3000 - 3500 rounds I do a full breakdown as above but I also replace the barrel. I do a full re-bedding job. Replace any parts that need it; pistons, op rod springs, bolt catch, etc...

NOTE: I store my rifles with trigger group unlatched...

It works. Thats it. Done deal....
 
#28 ·
My only M1A is my NM one I compete with. My cleaning regimen for the barrel and chamber is after every 80-100 rounds, I let the barrel soak for a few hours in Hoppes #9 (now trying KG-1) then patch it clean. Gas piston and cylinder gets cleaned about every 150 rounds. Other than that, I never take the action out of the wood stock unless something is wrong or I get the rifle wet (either rain or "sweat" from humidity). The rifle gets a new barrel, and bed job, about every other year anyway.

As for copper, each barrel is different. After 128 rounds, I ran some Sweet's into my new Douglas barrel and let set for about 10 minutes. The patch had only a faint amount of blue on it so, apparently, this particular barrel isn't getting much copper fouling.

After each cleaning, it does take about 3 rounds fired to get the bullets striking where they should. If I remove the action from the stock, I don't really trust it for about 10 rounds. I always try to never shoot a match with not having at least 2-3 rounds fired in the barrel to "foul" it.
 
#29 ·
Well I guess my best plan is to clean the barrel and gas system after each outing and once a season do a complete teardown and enjoy shooting it MCORPS1
 
#30 ·
After reading your post I realized I failed to mention I only clean the gas system maybe twice a year. And I don't feild strip the rifle. I am able to clean everything I need to without tearing it apart. I do remove the trigger assembly to add some grease and that is it.
 
#31 ·
Well I have about 150 loaded rounds left then I will be out of processed brass so it will be a good time to do a complete tear down and remove all the powder residue and copper, my plan is to use some Butch's Bore Shine and let it sit over night then lube in all the right places and put her away while i process 1500pcs of brass, I really need to find a easy way to get my bolt apart and don't want to remove the scope mount to use a 30.06 case and not sure I could get it back together if I took it apart using th GI tool, I also need to invest in a good book to show me the proper lube points rather than guessing
 
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