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Hey everyone
Is that really matter to have a receiver forged or cast ?
While you are shooting less than 15000 rounds with it ?
While you're not using it in war condition
In aluminium is a big difference but is there any big difference in steel ?

Can someone help me here who's making forged and who's making cast?
Please share your experience if you had any problem with receivers cause of method of build.


Thanks
 

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Is that really matter to have a receiver forged or cast ? That's like asking if you like a blue car of red.

While you are shooting less than 15000 rounds with it ? I have gone >16,500 now.

While you're not using it in war condition Some of the receivers have been, both cast and forged.

In aluminium is a big difference but is there any big difference in steel ? Sure!

Can someone help me here who's making forged and who's making cast? Yes.
http://m14forum.com/m14/10292-forged-vs-cast.html

A good start is with this small thread...

Merry Christmas
DI5
 

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XXIV linked us to a very good thread about this recurrent discussion.

I have only a small addition: We are here because we love the rifle as designed and manufactured. Occasionally, some parts are made incorrectly, which weaken the final assembly, such as wrong steel used and heat treatment conducted improperly.
 

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Simple matter of choice.

6 of one , half a dozen plus one of the other.
 

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I have both and see no discernible difference in terms of function. Both require milling to final dimensions and heat treatment, which are far more important. A properly made cast receiver trumps an improperly made forged receiver. You have to judge all receivers on an individual basis.

Original M14's had numerous cast parts.

The only parts of the rifle that should be forged are the bolt and barrel. I recommend a forged extractor if you will be using foreign or surplus ammo.
 

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Some receivers for the Rifle, Automatic, Browning, Caliber .30, M1918 and M1918A2 were cast....cast iron to boot.

In aluminium is a big difference but is there any big difference in steel ?
If you look at the physical properties of aluminum alloys, they are divided into two classes, wrought alloys and cast alloys, and alloys with the same chemical composition have different physical properties. However, if you look up steel alloys, you will note that only the chemical composition differentiates alloys, for instance, there is no listing for wrought 8620 steel and cast 8620, like there is for aluminum.

That is because the difference between cast steel alloys and wrought alloys (forged or rolled) are much less that that of aluminum and far more dependent on other factors.

The added benefit of forging is the realignment of the grain structure, and just because someone dropped a twenty ton hammer on a block of steel does not automatically means the grain structure is magically better. It is better only if the grain structure is arranged correctly.

Let's take an extreme example, suppose you drop a hammer on a block of steel 6.25 inches long, 3.25 inches wide and 3.25 inches deep and forged it into a rectangular block that was 6 x 3 x 3 inches with a lot of flash. Would that be appreciably tougher than a cast block of the same dimensions?

No, it wouldn't. Because you have not altered the grain structure.

Look at the receiver forging Springfield, Winchester and H&R used in the original M14s:


Note how the area of the locking buttresses has been formed, meaning the grain structure now follows (roughly) the external contours. This is how toughness was added.

Compare that to this commercial forging blank:


This forging is only a very slight improvement over a casting, because the grain structure around the all important locking buttresses has not been altered significantly.

Also, you only get moderate increases in strength through forging, what you get is increases in toughness and fatigue resistance. For an M14 receiver, with the size and shape of the locking buttresses, and the actual loads, neither of these are major concerns. With the bolt, however, these factors are much more important due to the higher bending stresses on the lugs. So, a cast receiver is more than adequate, but a forged bolt is very important.

And what goes for the bolt also goes for the operating rod, that weird bend at the transition from the tube to the external part has some high stresses.
 

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Not that I am some kind of expert in the matter but...I own both cast and forged receivers
I have found that the machined dimensional accuracy and proper heat treatment protocol is way more important than IF the receiver is cast or forged
Either example of a cast or forged receiver will last your lifetime and then some , when properly maintained
A out of spec receiver is something to be really concerned about and potentially life threatening as well
 
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The art of casting steel has come a long way, even from the 1980's.

I'd venture that if the M14 were re-introduced into production for the Army today, it would have a cast receiver. Casting is just so much cheaper and the difference in toughness is minimal.

Turbine blades in gas turbines engines are cast. These sit in a environment far more inhospitable than an M14 receiver and perform extremely well. And no, those holes are not drilled, they are cast into the part.....
 

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Hi,
Ok....I will admit it!

I don't like cast rifle receivers!

I was an early Polytech fan really just because of the FORGED receivers...

All though there were other things to like when they were being imported!

I still own a few and would put them up to anything out there.

Times have changed, mostly by the advances in M14 FORGED receiver options by....

BULA FORGE AND MACHINE!

It is now possible to buy a state of the art (actually looks like a piece of art)....

Forged M14 Receiver for $600?

CAST for $500 or a BULA FORGED for $600????

Not a hard choice for me!

Thanks BULA!
 

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Id be more cautious of the first 3D printed receiver.

Lysander's post shows a forged blank which is giant compared to the refined real M14. Who's blank is pictured?
 

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Id be more cautious of the first 3D printed receiver.

Lysander's post shows a forged blank which is giant compared to the refined real M14. Who's blank is pictured?
I don't know, all I know is that particular forging is little more than a billet receiver. It was just picked to show that just because it is "forged" does not automatically mean it is "better".

If Bula can make an M14 receiver for $600, then they are operating on a slimmer profit margin than the guys making cast ones for $500.
 

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The forgings shown are not what the government contractors used when machining them.
I have seen them and there is a lot less material remaining.
Plus they went through what is called a coining die, to give a lot more surface detail.
There was around 1/16" left on outside surfaces left for machining.
Without seeing those blanks in other projection they don't look like castings.
I see no trim die markings from flashing removal, they sure as hell don't look like closed die product either which were not used on the 14.
That side view looks like it has a spru on it. from gating.
 

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Hi,
Being a Hobby Blacksmith/Knifemaker, there is one big thing different with Forgings vs Castings.

This is a point in ANY application, knife, tool, receiver, ect.

Steel like wood has a grain structure.

When you forge the grain structure is forced to the shape of the forging aligning the structure of the steel into following the shape of the part.

This creates the grain of the steel to align and re enforce the grains next to it.

This is more easily shown with a sketch but beyond my talent on the computer.

Compared to a poured casting, the grain goes anywhere it wants, and does not have any real re enforcing ability!

This is not really rocket science and has been proven time and time again.

The GOOD news if you have a cast receiver is that the M14 design sits the receiver in a stock be it of what ever material, and is there for protected to a point!

This is just my opinion, but a conclusion I have come to after being involved in other fields that has nothing to do with firearms.
 

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Hi,
Here are a couple of pics of a USGI M1 Garand raw forging.

If you compare it to a cast reciever you can see with the naked eye the grain structure difference!
 

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One does not hear the "bell ringing sound" of a cast receiver versus the forged one. Is that due to the grain structure of the forged or lack thereof due to porosity of the cast one not providing that bell ringing?? There has been too many cast receivers in the hands of users to say it is not of sufficient strength to serve as a rifle receiver. Is the bell ringing sound important to the operation of the rifle, no, of course not, but just curious.
 

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Hi,
Here are a couple of pics of a USGI M1 Garand raw forging.

If you compare it to a cast reciever you can see with the naked eye the grain structure difference!
More of that "grain structure" on a forged receiver...I'm sure it makes a bell ringing sound.

Countless USGI forged parts have broken off of cast receivers on Camp Perry's firing lines. I'd waste the money on barrels and leave the debates to those that have put in the time to make it matter. So far, it hasn't.

 

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One does not hear the "bell ringing sound" of a cast receiver versus the forged one. Is that due to the grain structure of the forged or lack thereof due to porosity of the cast one not providing that bell ringing?? There has been too many cast receivers in the hands of users to say it is not of sufficient strength to serve as a rifle receiver. Is the bell ringing sound important to the operation of the rifle, no, of course not, but just curious.
Hi,
I think you hit it when mentioning the porosity of the cast receiver.

Cast anvils do not ring either when struck, but it goes beyond that.

I have a 150# Peter Wright Anvil and actually try to deaden the ringing...

As it is irritating while working for me.

What is good about a forged anvil is that it helps "lift" the hammer when struck for the next blow!

This is called a live anvil.

Cast anvils with a tool steel face does this to a point but not as good as forged. (my opinion and experience!)

Of course everyone has their own opinion and this is just one!

The chain around the base of the anvil below is to quiet the ringing!
 

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Ringing or the lack of it means there is a crack or flaw.
Every time I pick up a grinding wheel I ring test it for cracks.
The shape and hardness also determines whether or not it will ring.
The shape generally has to be somewhat akin to a tuning fork for it to ring.
In other cases it is not actually a ring but a note, a sharp or flat you will hear.

On a casting the surface structure looks like sandstone no grain like a tree whatsoever.
 

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The forging that lysander shows (first pic ) is the same picture retrieved from the archives at Springfield Armory. I have pictures of all sides of it at various stages of completion.Two have some machining done.

These are the forgings SA , I have TRW forging and its even detailed more than SA as it has left lug shaped as well, need to find.
 

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The biggest difference in casting vs forging outside the strength differences is overall appearance. Most companies using castings leave a lot of "as cast" surfaces which are rough often showing orange peel ,seams and blemishes.

A forging or billet receiver will be completely machined on all surfaces resulting in a more pleasing appearance.

You can clean up castings to look nice also but requires labor ,stoning,deburring ,surface grinding,machining,etc.
 
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